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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Apr 21, 2004 13:39:32 GMT -5
Just as everyone knows that when vultures gather there is a body there so shall everyone know that God's people have gone to heaven. The evidence will all be there out in the open but people will choose not believe anyway. The rapture will happen suddenly but it will not be a great mystery as to where they have all gone. There will be no excuse left not to believe by those left but they will still choose not to believe anyway.
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Post by genesda on Apr 22, 2004 4:47:40 GMT -5
Just as everyone knows that when vultures gather there is a body there so shall everyone know that God's people have gone to heaven. The evidence will all be there out in the open but people will choose not believe anyway. The rapture will happen suddenly but it will not be a great mystery as to where they have all gone. There will be no excuse left not to believe by those left but they will still choose not to believe anyway. When the "eagles" gather, there will be no one left to believe. The saved will be gone and the wicked will be destroyed/dead. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 22, 2004 4:58:26 GMT -5
The context has Jesus speaking of "two men in the field, two women grinding, one taken one left." The listeners in Lk17 asked: "WHERE, Lord?" (Where are they taken to?) Jesus answered, "where the body is will vultures gather." I don't see how He could have meant "the taken are raptured and the left-behind are killed" --- the leftbehind were in the field, in bed, grinding. Only the whereabouts of the TAKEN was in question... He also made the comparrison of Noah and those on the ark. There were those who were saved from the water and the rest were dead. Look at ALL of the verses on this subject, not just the ones that support a rapture as it's commonly taught. One taken ( leaves Earth with Jesus) and one left (dead where ever they are by the brightness of Jesus' return).
Look at 2 Peter 3:10. Everything will elt with a fervant heat when Jesus returns. No one will survive that.
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Post by Ben johnson on Apr 24, 2004 0:52:53 GMT -5
They asked, "WHERE, LORD?" It seems undeniable that they were asking where the taken ones went. (Because they knew WHERE the LEFT ones were --- in the field, in bed, grinding....) Nobody want to "take me up" on the challenge, "give me ONE VERSE that even HINTS at a pre-trib-rapture"? 1Thess5:9 (or 1:10)? Rev3:10? ANY verse?
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 24, 2004 1:32:42 GMT -5
Ben, why not just read ALL of my posts on this thread. Yes, I believe that I Thess. 4 speaks of a pre-trib rapture, but besides the verses themselves - one should not disregard the circumstantial evidence. I'll not rehash it, my posts can be found on the first and second page of this threa.
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 24, 2004 1:36:10 GMT -5
Ben, what do you understand the phrase, "rightly dividing" to refer to?
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Post by genesda on Apr 26, 2004 4:29:35 GMT -5
They asked, "WHERE, LORD?" It seems undeniable that they were asking where the taken ones went. (Because they knew WHERE the LEFT ones were --- in the field, in bed, grinding....) Nobody want to "take me up" on the challenge, "give me ONE VERSE that even HINTS at a pre-trib-rapture"? 1Thess5:9 (or 1:10)? Rev3:10? ANY verse? You'll get no argument from me. I don't believe there will be a "rapture" at all. I believe Jesus will return and take the saved away from this world when He comes and the rest will be destroyed along with everything else on this planet. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 26, 2004 4:31:28 GMT -5
Ben, why not just read ALL of my posts on this thread. Yes, I believe that I Thess. 4 speaks of a pre-trib rapture, but besides the verses themselves - one should not disregard the circumstantial evidence. I'll not rehash it, my posts can be found on the first and second page of this threa. 1 Thess. 4 is speaking of the return of Jesus, not a pre-trib rapture. What you're professing is not biblical at all. There will be no one left alive after 1 Thess. 4. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Apr 26, 2004 4:33:05 GMT -5
Ben, what do you understand the phrase, "rightly dividing" to refer to? Rightly dividing refers to comparing ALL scriptures on a subject and getting the right conclusion by dividing the truth from fables, which is what a pre-trib rapture is. [/color]
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Post by Ben johnson on Apr 29, 2004 17:19:34 GMT -5
Compare Rev3:10 with Jn17:15; in the latter Jesus said: "Father I ask You not to take them OUT of the world but to KEEP THEM FROM the evil one."
His "take-them-out" is "airo-autos-ek"; and "keep-them-amidst" is "tereo-autos-ek".
So when Rev3:10 says "keep from the hour of trial" it uses "tereo-ek" --- how can the same term used by Jesus to mean "GUARD AMIDST" change to mean the AIRO - remove (rescue/rapture) out of the earth?
This is why I say "not one verse hints of pre-Trib". When you compare 1Thess4:15-17 with Rev20:4-6, it is clear that the LIVING shall not preceed the DEAD; for the dead are raised FIRST, and then (and ONLY then) are the living RAPTURED.
So --- if the FIRST RESURRECTION (protos anastasis) occurs AFTER the Tribulation (Rev20:4-5), then how can the LIVING preceed the DEAD?
The only thing that works, is the idea of ONE SINGLE RESURRECTION EVENT --- the FIRST resurrection of ALL dead; and THEN rapture of the living.
...AFTER the Tribulation...
Seems supported by Matt24 also...
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Post by genesda on Apr 30, 2004 4:08:34 GMT -5
Compare Rev3:10 with Jn17:15; in the latter Jesus said: "Father I ask You not to take them OUT of the world but to KEEP THEM FROM the evil one."His "take-them-out" is "airo-autos-ek"; and "keep-them-amidst" is "tereo-autos-ek". So when Rev3:10 says "keep from the hour of trial" it uses "tereo-ek" --- how can the same term used by Jesus to mean "GUARD AMIDST" change to mean the AIRO - remove (rescue/rapture) out of the earth?
This is why I say "not one verse hints of pre-Trib". When you compare 1Thess4:15-17 with Rev20:4-6, it is clear that the LIVING shall not preceed the DEAD; for the dead are raised FIRST, and then (and ONLY then) are the living RAPTURED.
So --- if the FIRST RESURRECTION (protos anastasis) occurs AFTER the Tribulation (Rev20:4-5), then how can the LIVING preceed the DEAD?
The only thing that works, is the idea of ONE SINGLE RESURRECTION EVENT --- the FIRST resurrection of ALL dead; and THEN rapture of the living.
...AFTER the Tribulation...
Seems supported by Matt24 also...
Your conclusion is correct. [/color]
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