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Post by Jan on Jul 25, 2003 22:35:17 GMT -5
No, our Lord Jesus Christ didn't lie when He said these things! Amen, HeartforHim! <><
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 25, 2003 23:10:37 GMT -5
Just so I am clear, you are referring to the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God right? Also you are referring to the Sinner who lives 100 years in the New Heavens and Earth, and then dies, right? Preterism affirms and upholds the promises made by God. Jesus did not Lie to John when He told John that the "Time was At Hand", Just as God did not Lie to Daniel when He said the time was Far off, not at hand. God dosen't lie, even about the timing of a prophesy's fulfillment. Your theology claims that 2500 years is "far off" but 2000 years is somehow "at hand"? No, I am not referring to 2 names for Jesus. If you were truly familiar with the scripture I referenced, you know that I quoted it wrong. Isaiah 65:25 (Living Bible) "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw as the ox does, and poisonous snakes shall strike no more!" Also, in the same chapter about the new heavens and new earth: "No longer will babies die when only a few days old; no longer will men be considered old at 100! Only sinners will die that young! ...For my people will live as long as trees and will long enjoy their hardwon gains."
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 25, 2003 23:12:38 GMT -5
Just so I am clear, you are referring to the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God right? Also you are referring to the Sinner who lives 100 years in the New Heavens and Earth, and then dies, right? Preterism affirms and upholds the promises made by God. Jesus did not Lie to John when He told John that the "Time was At Hand", Just as God did not Lie to Daniel when He said the time was Far off, not at hand. God dosen't lie, even about the timing of a prophesy's fulfillment. Your theology claims that 2500 years is "far off" but 2000 years is somehow "at hand"? No, I am not referring to 2 names for Jesus. If you were truly familiar with the scripture I referenced, you know that I quoted it wrong. Isaiah 65:25 (Living Bible) "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw as the ox does, and poisonous snakes shall strike no more!" Also, in the same chapter about the new heavens and new earth: "No longer will babies die when only a few days old; no longer will men be considered old at 100! Only sinners will die that young! ...For my people will live as long as trees and will long enjoy their hardwon gains." This has not happened yet. The new heavens and new earth are not here yet. It is preterism that is 2000 years off. Now in regards to John being told that it was 'at hand", the Greek word used is 'tachos' and is an adverb of manner. In other words, it means that when it happens, it will happen fast. And, he was given the vision in 95 A.D., so the events did not occur at 70 A.D. In fact, I was recently reading that John wrote his books after 70 A.D.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 26, 2003 12:20:50 GMT -5
Re: Reply #72 on: 07/24/2003 at 21:32:07
Dear parousia70,
I do not think that the second coming of Jesus Christ could have been/was/could be/will be avoided if every human soul in existance repeneted and became His. It would be wonderful if we were all together to meet Him when He came ...
Please provide me with some useful links. I am earnestly trying to understand. At this time, much of what you have written seems to conflict with what I've been taught growing up. It seems to take specific verses and generalize upon them. But I can't make any more specific comments because I am just too ignorant of either side of the issue.
TarueBeliever
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Post by TarueBeliever on Jul 26, 2003 20:59:39 GMT -5
parousia70,
I spent much of today reading from The Preterist Archive <http://www.preteristarchive.com> and have a tiny basic understanding of preterist views (I think):
1. Christ & Apostles wrote as if Christ would be returning really soon.
2. Christ said he would (and did) return before some of the listeners died.
3. All the fiery, destruction at "the end time" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD by the Romans at the end of the old covenant (between God & Jews)
4. Christ came back then (70AD) and set up his Kingdom in his people (it's not a physical place, its a life, a way of living, without all the cruelties of the physical world) -- like when he answered Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36
Outside of these points, I've not gotten any further.
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 9:04:57 GMT -5
The 7 churches were chosen to represent 7 types of churches and each represents a dominant church of a given period in the history of the church. You have no word from John why seven churches are addressed, and it amazes me how you then use this silence to invent your own elaborate allegory, which is nowhere taught by the bible. There is no biblical support for your allegory. I have to ask: Where does the bible teach that? Quite simply, it doesn't. That statement of yours is entirely unbiblical, and has no root in apostolic belief or teaching (scripture). It is an allegory invented by later futurists, but was unknown to the apostles. Clearly, the dating of Ravelation requires it's own thread. You believe the evidence supports the late date, I believe the evidence supports the early date. Based on the Body of evidence available today, and the current, ongoing scholarly debate umong those more learned then you or I, to claim any date is established fact, is a flasehood. It has no bearing on the issue of the promises to the Churches anyway. Nope. Jesus did not lie, He was speaking the truth, just as the prophets before Him. The Father came often in OT times, and His coming was always described by the prophets as physical, visible, and personal. In none of these instances was He physically seen by anyone even though the prophets described it as such. Jesus, the greatest prophet of all, does not waiver from the set precident for the use and interpratation of this type of language. Why do you argue for a polar opposite interpratation of the set precident that is nowhere taught in the Bible? The Hebrews understood the the comings of Jehovah in OT times in exactly this sense as we are discussing for the coming of Christ. Jehovah came multiple times during the OT period (586BC, for example), and the Hebrews prophets labeled those judgment events as the "Day(s) of the Lord." The apostles, believing the ascended Christ was fully equal with the Father, therefore call the AD 70 apocalypse the "Day of Christ," ascribing to Christ those divine abilities and powers of judgment which were formerly only ascribed to Jehovah the Divine Warrior, Lord of Hosts. Now, in all those OT comings of Yahweh, the sense is not that Yahweh was physically seen shooting his bow and arrows and leading armies in marches to battles and coming on clouds (Isa 19:1-2), even though the prophetic descriptions all read that way. Rather, the catastrophic events foretold by the prophets came to pkmtyolp as predicted, for Jehovah's invisible appearing/Presence accomplished them. So also was the case with the coming of Christ--it was "in the glory of the Father" (Matthew 16:27-28), it was a "Day of the Lord" (as that was understood by the Hebrew prophets).
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 9:42:58 GMT -5
Also, in the same chapter about the new heavens and new earth: "No longer will babies die when only a few days old; no longer will men be considered old at 100! Only sinners will die that young! ...For my people will live as long as trees and will long enjoy their hardwon gains." So you agree that Sinners will be born, grow old and die in the New Heavens and Earth?
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 9:52:12 GMT -5
parousia70, I spent much of today reading from The Preterist Archive <http://www.preteristarchive.com> and have a tiny basic understanding of preterist views (I think): Good. That is an excellent site with much data. You will find opposing arguments to preterism there as well for comparison. On to your points: 1. Christ & Apostles wrote as if Christ would be returning really soon.Christ didn't write anything that anyone can point to today. Perhaps a better way to phrase that would be : "Christ & Apostles taught that Christ would be returning really soon, within the lifetime of the apostles, within their present generation." 2. Christ said he would (and did) return before some of the listeners died.Absolutely correct. 3. All the fiery, destruction at "the end time" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD by the Romans at the end of the old covenant (between God & Jews)Excellent. That is correct. I am impressed by yur grasp of this, especially the part about the Old Covenant ending at Jerusalems destruction. You are way ahead of most futurists on this point. 4. Christ came back then (70AD) and set up his Kingdom in his people (it's not a physical place, its a life, a way of living, without all the cruelties of the physical world) -- like when he answered Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36Again, very good. Keep digging a preteristarchive. I'd also recommend www.preteristvision.organd www.preteristcosmos.comIn His present victory, P70
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Post by Bondslave on Jul 27, 2003 12:23:17 GMT -5
3. All the fiery, destruction at "the end time" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD by the Romans at the end of the old covenant (between God & Jews)Excellent. That is correct. I am impressed by yur grasp of this, especially the part about the Old Covenant ending at Jerusalems destruction. You are way ahead of most futurists on this point. I've only been poking in ocpkmtyolcionally, but this seems like a stretch in spiritualizing the actual scriptures. So are you suggesting that when scripture says the heavens will pkmtyolp away, and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and it's works will be burned up it just is a gross exaggerations that Jerusalem will be partly destroyed? Is Jerusalem of 70 AD really both heaven AND earth? And second question...since this portion of scripture says that the Lord is being patient so that ALL to come to repentance that that was also completed in 70AD and that everyone that has proclaimed Christ since then are false believers (including you and me) since the ALL was completed in 70AD? Along another line, please explain how this scripture fits into your view... If I understand your view correctly (and of course correct if I'm not!), you're suggesting that around 70 AD God ended His refrain from judgement and vengence of the blood of the marytrs upon those who dwell on the earth. And furthermore, that there has been no additional martyrs have been killed because that number was completed around 70 AD. Do you suggest that the initial concerns of these kings was unfounded? At first they hid themselves, and proclaimed "who is able to stand" (in the face of God's wrath)? But since there is still much evil in the world they were just overwrought and actually they did just fine in the face of God's wrath? It is just my personal opinion, but to me, the preterist view seems to take VERY literally any use of the word "soon", but then turn around and spiritualize anything describing the world or destruction as related to the sacking of Jerusalem. One question I hadn't seen asked (but as I said I've only read a little), is this. Does the preterist view say that Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire? There appears to be too much evil in the world to come to the conclusion that Satan has no influence. There doesn't seem to have been any point in history one could point to that is 1000 years long that would suggest Satan was bound and sealed in the abyss. Rev. 20:3 says he would not deceive any nation during that 1000 year period. So is it the preterists view that between 70 AD and 1070 AD Satan was not deceiving any nation in the world? Which city do perterists view as the Babylon that was thrown down? It can't be the ancient city of Babylon because that has been found. And it can't be Jerusalem, because we can find that as well. To be sure, some of the Bible is literal, some is parable, and some is allegory. But the context normally identifies which is which. I don't see scripture broken down so that the word "soon" is literal, and every subsequent description is allegory. First Peter is believed to have been written about 63AD. Why is Peter warning the early church that with God a day is like a thousand years if the second coming were only 7 short years away? These are only a few of the issues that cause me to not buy into the preterist view. Each time I open my Bible I find more. Blessings, Bondslave
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 16:53:47 GMT -5
Hiya Bondslave, thanks for joining in! I must commend you on the thoughtfulness of your querries. You appear, in contrast to many other futurists on this board, to be genuinely interested in why preterists beleive what we do. Thank you for your tenor, I will effort my best response from my limited understanding. I've only been poking in ocpkmtyolcionally, but this seems like a stretch in spiritualizing the actual scriptures. How so? Nope, not gross exaggerations, but precidented use of the very same "apocalyptic language" used over and over by the prophets to describe the fall of a nation. The prophets often used the language of universal catyclism when speaking of Gods Judgements against nations. Christ is merely honoring the precidented use of this language, language that his audience was intimately familiar with. It is only when we are unaware of the previous usage of this language that we fall into the error of hyper-literalism. The temple certainly was where Heaven and earth connected. The very one and only dwelling place of God on earth. The creation of Old covenant system was called the creation of "heaven and earth" by God himself back when He gave the Law. (Isaiah 51:16) The Gospel, which sole purpose for existance is to call sinners to salvation, is EVERLASTING. To suggest an end to the everlasting purpose of the Gospel is to suggest an end to the everlasting gospel itself. Your question sounds a bit like universalism, Are you one who believes all human beings will be saved? Thats because we have set biblical precident to do so. The timing of a prophey's fulfillment is always given to be understood by how time relates to man and not how time relates to God, while the Judgement of individual nations is described as global, even universal catyclism. Since This precident can be found over and over and over in the OT, We therefore have no reason to apply a polar opposite interpratation for this when we get to the NT. The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Man is fully capable of Evil weithout Satanic influence, indeed that the heart of MAN is decietful above ALL THINGS (Jer 17:9) and that each man is tempted by his OWN Desires (James 1:14) For Evil to be in the world, Satan does not need to be behind it. Satan is in the Lake of Fire and is today powerless to keep anyone from salvation. He is a defeated foe. Not exactly. The 1000 year reign was fulfilled in the 40 years between when God raised up Christ to sit on Davids throne at the ascention (Acts 2:30-32), and Christ's return ion the Glory of the Father in the day of the lord that took place at the 66-70AD sacking of Jerusalem. This was representative of the totality of the David Monarchy, David as the First King in the Line, Christ the Last, a period lasting 1000 years. Christ fulfilled what the failed kings of that time could not. In the OC, The nations were kept away from any knowledge of God. Satan was free to decieve them. Under the New covenant, in contrast, Satan is powerless to prevent anyone from the knowledge of God. To be sure, the Jerusalem of the Mosaic economy can be found no more, It was extinguished never to rise again. 1st century apostate Jerusalem was "mystery babylon" the "great city where our lord was crucified". Contd next post.....
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 27, 2003 16:57:03 GMT -5
Then you aren't looking.
In AD 67-70, coincident with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple at the end of the Old Covenant age. The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the pkmtyolpage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).
Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):
[On Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai] Jehovah came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them (Deut 33:2; cf. Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16)
[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)
[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)
[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)
[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)
These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
Well, probably because it had been over 30 years since Jesus promised them He would return to them, and people must have been getting antsy. Peter also says that the Judgement was indeed "at hand", a mere 3 years before it began!
God Bless, P70
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 28, 2003 0:09:42 GMT -5
So you agree that Sinners will be born, grow old and die in the New Heavens and Earth? No. I believe they will in the millenium. Prophecy is not chronological, particularly not in the OT. Revelation givs us more information. AFTER Satan is released and tries once more to deceive the world and is defeated, and all are judged, THEN God creates the new heaven and the new earth, and we have the new Jerusalem. I was up late before and probably was not clear about this. If we are in the new heavens and new earth...there would be no more tears, no more death, we would see God, no more need to for light... Previous to this though, in the millenial reign, with Jesus on the throne in Jerusalem, bbies will not die, the wolf and the lamb eat together and the lion eats straw with the ox. So we are not in the new heavens and new earth yet.
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 28, 2003 0:43:50 GMT -5
You have no word from John why seven churches are addressed, and it amazes me how you then use this silence to invent your own elaborate allegory, which is nowhere taught by the bible. There is no biblical support for your allegory. I have to ask: Where does the bible teach that? Quite simply, it doesn't. That statement of yours is entirely unbiblical, and has no root in apostolic belief or teaching (scripture). It is an allegory invented by later futurists, but was unknown to the apostles. Clearly, the dating of Ravelation requires it's own thread. You believe the evidence supports the late date, I believe the evidence supports the early date. Based on the Body of evidence available today, and the current, ongoing scholarly debate umong those more learned then you or I, to claim any date is established fact, is a flasehood. It has no bearing on the issue of the promises to the Churches anyway. Actually the DATE has much to do with why those 7 churches are mentioned. First, as I wrote before, Smyrna did not exist when Paul was preaching is Asia per Polycarp, disciple of John. Second, the town of Laodicea was almost totally destroyed by an earthquake in 60 A.D. So a mere 4 years later, they are referred to as rich?? By 95 A.D., they had rebuilt, and the coinage that came from Laodicea had increased greatly from the 60's. (per the British museum's antique Greek and Roman coin folks). Third, Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus. Paul wrote I Timothy in 64 A.D. and II Timothy in 66 or 67 A.D.. No mention of losing 'their first love', no mention of John's Revelation. Interesting that you want a literal 1st century answer and yet, you allegorize so much. If you look into their history, and what follows for them, there is some fulfillment. The promise to Philadelphia is yet to be fulfilled. These epistles were prophecy. Do you think that God was addressing a 'King of Babylon' in Isaiah 14:3...or Satan? You are dodging my questions. I wrote and will add clarification: Also, do you think Jesus lied when He said that every eye would see Him when He came? Let me clarify - when Jesus said that He would return, He said that every eye would see Him. Appparently Rome missed it - if it had happened in 70 A.D. AND all the church fathers! EVEN John. They ALL believed the second coming was future. they were not preterists as you claim. Even full preterist authors don't try to make that claim! Did God lie when He gave Isaiah the prophecy that the lion would lie with the lamb, that a person dying at 100 would be thought accursed (for short life), that peace would reign? Did God lie when He gave Zechariah the prophecy that at the capture of Jerusalem, He would then destroy those who came against Jerusalem? Read Zechariah 14:12-14. Were the Romans seized by a plague that rotted the eyes in the sockets and caused their flesh to rot where they stood? Have all nations sent people to worship at the Feast of Booths in Jerusalem every year since? Did Jesus lie when He said that when these things begin to happen, look up, for your redemption draws nigh? What exactly was the redemption that the Jews received? We are saved by Christ when we believe and accept....so why wait until certain things to look up and see redemption? Again, let me clarify. In Zechariah, we learn that when Jerusalem is taken, The Lord would then step in and destroy those who came against Jerusalem. Titus did not rot where he stood ...he went home victorious! And have the nations gone year after year ever since to celebrate the Feast of the Tebernacles (Booths)? Also Joel tells us that the nations will be judged in the valley of Jehosephat in that last day...that didn't happen either! What redemption waited til 70 A.D.?
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Post by Heart4Him on Jul 28, 2003 1:00:41 GMT -5
It is just my personal opinion, but to me, the preterist view seems to take VERY literally any use of the word "soon", but then turn around and spiritualize anything describing the world or destruction as related to the sacking of Jerusalem. Blessings, Bondslave You hit the nail on the head. What I have seen with the preterist view is that they spiritualize what cannot be explained, and by doing this, they can avoid those pesky details. IF the Second Coming occured in 70 A.D., why did the early church fathers all miss it? Why did the Romans miss it? Why did the Romans return home victorius? WHO were the 2 witnesses and were they resurrected in front of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and what happened to the earthquake that accompanied their resurrection? When was the gpkmtyolr and tress all burned up? Where was the fire and brimstone from heaven? What happened to Wormwood? Did the seas turn to blood - and all ships get destroyed? .. I could go on and on..... Yep, a lot of details can be avoided when the scripture is spiritualized. I go with the literal hermenuetic, except when figures of speech are used - like metaphors, similies, obvious symbols...and look for scripture to explain scripture. Now regarding the word 'soon', several Greek words are used. Often, the word means that when the events occur, they will be swift. Or it means that it is impending. Haggai prophesied "In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth...and the desire of all nations will come..." That was a prophesy of the Messiah. A little while = at least 500 years till Christ came the first time!
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 28, 2003 1:32:21 GMT -5
Actually the DATE has much to do with why those 7 churches are mentioned. First, as I wrote before, Smyrna did not exist when Paul was preaching is Asia per Polycarp, disciple of John. Second, the town of Laodicea was almost totally destroyed by an earthquake in 60 A.D. So a mere 4 years later, they are referred to as rich?? By 95 A.D., they had rebuilt, and the coinage that came from Laodicea had increased greatly from the 60's. (per the British museum's antique Greek and Roman coin folks). Third, Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus. Paul wrote I Timothy in 64 A.D. and II Timothy in 66 or 67 A.D.. No mention of losing 'their first love', no mention of John's Revelation. Interesting that you want a literal 1st century answer and yet, you allegorize so much. If you look into their history, and what follows for them, there is some fulfillment. The promise to Philadelphia is yet to be fulfilled. These epistles were prophecy. Do you think that God was addressing a 'King of Babylon' in Isaiah 14:3...or Satan? You are dodging my questions. I wrote and will add clarification: Also, do you think Jesus lied when He said that every eye would see Him when He came? Let me clarify - when Jesus said that He would return, He said that every eye would see Him. Appparently Rome missed it - if it had happened in 70 A.D. AND all the church fathers! EVEN John. They ALL believed the second coming was future. they were not preterists as you claim. Even full preterist authors don't try to make that claim! Did God lie when He gave Isaiah the prophecy that the lion would lie with the lamb, that a person dying at 100 would be thought accursed (for short life), that peace would reign? Did God lie when He gave Zechariah the prophecy that at the capture of Jerusalem, He would then destroy those who came against Jerusalem? Read Zechariah 14:12-14. Were the Romans seized by a plague that rotted the eyes in the sockets and caused their flesh to rot where they stood? Have all nations sent people to worship at the Feast of Booths in Jerusalem every year since? Did Jesus lie when He said that when these things begin to happen, look up, for your redemption draws nigh? What exactly was the redemption that the Jews received? We are saved by Christ when we believe and accept....so why wait until certain things to look up and see redemption? Again, let me clarify. In Zechariah, we learn that when Jerusalem is taken, The Lord would then step in and destroy those who came against Jerusalem. Titus did not rot where he stood ...he went home victorious! And have the nations gone year after year ever since to celebrate the Feast of the Tebernacles (Booths)? Also Joel tells us that the nations will be judged in the valley of Jehosephat in that last day...that didn't happen either! What redemption waited til 70 A.D.? The greatest cataclysmic event in Jewish History happened in 70 AD, the Old Jerusalem was destroyed. God promised that Jerusalem would be restored and all nations would come to the Holy City to worship. Are you saying that God told us to wait 2000+ years untill the New Jerusalem or is it true that the temple is not made by man but an everlasting tabernacle? Jesus also promised a wealth of things would be accessible to His followers after the end of the age... Why then do we claim these things have happened spiritually (like the ability to have eternal life and fellowship with God. ) The book of John tells us that God will dwell with man and yet doesn't God in the form of the Holy Spirit fulfill that? There is little doubt in my mind that the process of the Kingdom of Heaven works within each of us now and is not ever again going to be confined to the work of the hands of Man, such as a building or geographical location.
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