Alleluja
Full Member
James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Posts: 125
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Post by Alleluja on Jul 14, 2003 18:10:13 GMT -5
Great Point Woodyblueeyes!!!
such a shame folks don't really KNOW History anymore, there is a weird article in my Sunday newspaper that tells the tale of 'THEM' changing the history books to fit THEIR needs....
hey, i am a good 1st hand expample...being Native American Indian, i can assure you that there are folks who have changed history books!!!!
i will see if i can find a link for my article and post it here later....
btw, there has been an AC.... but it was not the End times AC....for there still needs to be the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem in the near future... Remember another point. Christians are not looking for the Messiah, so those who are true Christias shouldn't have any worry ..... It is the Jewish folks who are seeking Messiah and they are the ones who will choose the AC, being beguiled that he is the Messiah..... Reading carefully the Word of God, we find out that the Jewish people of Jesus' day were under Judgement and their sentance was spiritual blindness and deafness...
so they couldn't recognize Jesus.... but God the Father has a set time for this particular judgement against them to be fulfilled....it just happens to be at the same time the AC will show his hand....(evil and not good, lies and not truth, conspiracy not victory!)....oooh, poor folks! they will see his sword drawn ready to kill not heal them.....!
Scripture:
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Isaiah 59:10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye]blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Matt 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
John 9:40-41 And some of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Luke 6:39 And He spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Want to see the Pattern God used for the Disciple that would go to the Gentiles and Testify of the Great Mystery?
Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun FOR A SEASON. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. PAUL!
NOW SEE WHAT PAUL CAN LATER REVEAL TO US ALL:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
that's a season, ladies and gentlemen!!! so we await the day that all of Israel shall be saved, healed of their blindness.... Today that wonderful Remnant is Visual and evident!!! But we live with a more perfect HOPE!!!![/color]
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Post by Jan on Jul 14, 2003 19:01:22 GMT -5
So how does the events of Revelation play into this theory? For example when was the Abomination that causes Desolation set up in the Temple? The Temple was destroyed in 70AD before the book of Revelation was written in approximately 96AD so how could it have been set up there if the temple did not exist ? History does tell us that after Nero's reign, Domitian became ruler. He hated Christianity also, but not to the extent of Nero. Nero's method of persecution had been one of bloodshed, but Domitian's was one of excile. It was during Domitian's reign that John was exciled to the Island of Patmos - somewhere in his reign of AD 90's. <><
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 14, 2003 19:32:22 GMT -5
I've heard one theory that says the Abomination that causes Desolation is the Dome of the Rock
God bless
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Post by Jan on Jul 14, 2003 19:44:36 GMT -5
I understand that the Dome of the Rock is not built exactly on the Temple Mount, though...interesting.... <><
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 14, 2003 20:09:52 GMT -5
While you agree that we are in the New Jeruselem, that is of primary importantce to me. Whether or not you can accept a physical rapture having taken place is of little importance, since you know where you are. It may; however, interest you to know that the date timing is correct for the rapture period I posted, so that is why I had to go back, and find a period that would explain all events fortold by John. As citizens of the theocracy known as the New Jeruselem, we have a lot to do to even restore us to the position of the church-state in 1787. We then must move forward from there,until we are the nation envisioned. Yours in the Ever Living Christ, Larry Ok I here ya... I also agree that it is not the rapture that matters.. I believe that there isn't one and you believe it already happened.. So the same point is made... We are in the New Jerusalem.. My problem with the Rapture (in the future) view is that we are still waiting for our King... Like we don't have to live as princes of the Kingdom of God right now.. So I guess between us the rapture point is moot..
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 14, 2003 20:17:02 GMT -5
Guidemelord
Are you saying we don't have to have a rapture? I asking because I can never seem to find it spelled only in Matthew 24 and that to me seems like it would be the saved jews.
Now personally I don't think the rapture matters. What matters is spreading the Word of Christ Jesus. And our relationship with God.
In His Love ysic
pippin I believe that Christ's coming back was for two things.. To finally show the Jewish Leaders that He spoke the truth in Daniel (which is why His Coming would have been in their lifetime) while establishing His Kingdom on earth in His New Jerusalem (the Body of Christ :ie US) and to show vengeance on the Nation of Israel for their continuing sacrifice to an unknown god (since our perfect sacrifice is in Christ Jesus they couldn't be sacrificing to the God) which is an abomination in His house. Matthew 24 addresses both issues and the gathering us to Him refers to our spiritual oneness while we 'live in and through Him'. Jesus is our King of kings and Lord of lords.. right now... why do we need a rapture...? To save us from tribulation? There are many, such as Corrie Ten Boom, that never expected a rapture but endured in service to their King, Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.... Did that answer your question in any way?
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 14, 2003 20:27:04 GMT -5
Larry, whatever possessed you to think up this discertation? Psalm 126:6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing His sheaves with Him. Who is HE that goeth forth weeping.... Jesus: Seed: Truth/Word Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. John 1:2 The WORD, Jesus, Logos....alive now.... Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He hath poured out His soul unto death: and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Jesus Today Alive, and Soon To Come to Earth Again... Hebrews 2:10 For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. bringing His Sheaves with HIM! 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Sheaves: those who are bound to Him as a branch to the vine: John 15:5 I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.Who Will Christ Bring With Himself? 1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH HIM 1 Thess 3:13 To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL His saints. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive THE EARY AND LATTER RAIN. Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. Matt 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at his coming. Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Alleluja, These pkmtyolpages that you posted were written for those they were addressed to not you and I. Therefore they could have been fulfilled in the year Larry talks about. It is a possibility as much as it happening now would be a possibility. Sheaves could also mean armies couldn't it? Jesus coming in the Clouds is also depicted in how He ascended to heaven.. The discription in Acts 1:8-10 says that He was taken up in a cloud and they could not see Him after the cloud came.. so cloud could signify that it is really a spiritual...spiritual ascention because if you will remember, He just 'popped' in on the disciples more than once... He was already changed from corruptible to incorruptible so He really could just pop anywhere. Just some thoughts to mull over...
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 14, 2003 20:32:16 GMT -5
If I'm understanding your posts, you theorize that we live in New Jerusalem NOW? That the United States is the New Jerusalem of the Bible?
[/color][/quote] See here, I don't ascribe to the rapture having happened, but I do see where you are missing the point. You are still likening the 'New Jerusalem' to the Old Jerusalem. The Jewish leaders thought that Christ would be a conquerer to free them from the Romans and yet He was here to conquer Satan not just the Romans. Now you are thinking that Jesus will again come to free christians from the evil world and set up a literal city.... Larry may not even be in the United States... but what He means is that we are part of the everlasting New Jerusalem where Christ rules. He is King over all. New Jerusalem is Christ's Kingdom and we are in it. Geography has nothing to do with it.
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Post by Shirley on Jul 15, 2003 9:10:42 GMT -5
See here, I don't ascribe to the rapture having happened, but I do see where you are missing the point. You are still likening the 'New Jerusalem' to the Old Jerusalem. The Jewish leaders thought that Christ would be a conquerer to free them from the Romans and yet He was here to conquer Satan not just the Romans. Now you are thinking that Jesus will again come to free christians from the evil world and set up a literal city.... Larry may not even be in the United States... but what He means is that we are part of the everlasting New Jerusalem where Christ rules. He is King over all. New Jerusalem is Christ's Kingdom and we are in it. Geography has nothing to do with it. So then, the thousand year reign and satan bound, is symbolic of what?
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Post by larrygn on Jul 15, 2003 9:32:46 GMT -5
Alleluja: This is the problem with quoting out of context. 1. In order to understand the Bible, it is important to look at the situation in which the statement you are reading is addressing. When you look at Psalms, you are looking at prayer/song, hardly prohesey, but reflecting the view of the then current church. Do not try to just find verses that say what you want, that is easy, rather, try to understand the story that is being presented, and its meaning for us today. Yours in the Ever Living Christ, Larry
Woody: You are very knowledgeable, so I am not going to tell you you are wrong, I am only presenting the situation which I feel both history and the Bible tell it. I first find it hard to believe that God is just sitting by doing nothing for 2000 years waiting for 21 st century Americana, and then going to say, hey these are the greatest people, lets start now. No, I don't think we are even close to the raptured saints of old who had to endure all sorts of pain and suffering just to be Christian. I am saying that I am trying to show people the New Jersuslem, I don't care if you accept the rapture to get there, but I personally (of course ) do believe it took place, hence my post. The anti-Christ exists, we just do not see him for what he is, he is the greatest remover of people from the church, and from good works, and from using their money to aid others, rather than themselves, his name is ENTERTAINMENT. He and his follwers have endless fiscal resources, while the church itself has little, there is NO WAY to compete with him on his terms, rather, we need to use what he is and has against him to restore the New Jeruselem to the position destined for it to become by the Living and Breathing God Eternal. When the rapture happened, it was the "saints" of the church that were taken, there were still members left, who were not full Christian in belief. Some came to believe, others fell away, hene the struggle of Christiainity to keep itself alive after 538 A.D.; whereas before 476 A.D. the church was expanding at unbelievable rates. Yours in the Ever Living Christ, Larry
SJudy: I think any historican of any value, and interest in the church will give you a timeline of 95-96 A.D. for Revelations. I am not interested in the half baked views of those reveiling the Bible to us on the Hisotry, and Discovery channels. I know of NO competent historican who would give other dates than that, and if they do, I would like to see their documentation. John was an old man when he was taken to Patmos, and a sentence of 1 year was considered a death sentence for him -- of course, the Living God had other plans. If you really want to go into theory, try this: John was the disciple Jesus loved. Where is his death even recorded? Yours in the Ever Living Christ, Larry
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Post by larrygn on Jul 15, 2003 9:53:18 GMT -5
guidemeLord: It is important to understand that the USA is the New Jersuelem, it is across the " gpkmtyolly sea", it was the cause of all the golden crowns of nations around the gpkmtyolly sea to be cast down, and is the current situation, since all remaining monarchies on that body of water are shells, not real. It was the land of milk and honey, whose streets are paved in godl, and whose alabaster cities gleam, undimed by human tears. It is the city by which the Bright Light of freedom is lifted besides the golden door, the bright light of freedeom, well, I believe it is freedom's HOLY LIGHT = the Living Christ, so it is in Christ that all freedom is secured. As for the nature of the nation, I belive the song end, protect us by Thy might, Great God - OUR KING. I have a great deal more in my unpublish book, " THEISM, THEOLOGY, AND THE THEISTS = A HISTORY OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC". By the way, Corrie should have understood the anti-Christ and his actions, for it was against his very gates of Hell that the soliders of Cross did prevail on June 6, 1944. Yours in the Ever Living Christ, Larry
vinsight4u I believe you confuse the church, and the Church, so who among us claims to be vocal representative for the Church? You are too interested in the temple , and the old Isreal, look at all of the New Testament, what is it saying, stop concentrating and wasting your time on Isreal, they had their chance, and gave it away. The mainstream church was the heretic, and the outsiders where the purists. Yours in the Ever Living Christ, Larry
SJudy: I believe that the 1000 year reign ( say 538 - 1453/1529 A.D.) was the period of time in which all proclamations, and actions were done "...In the Name of Christ...". This was not walways what it was supposed to be, but her again, the church of its day failed to understand its mission, so it also lost the opportunity to become the nation of God. The Devil was chained only in print, but not in fact, and the name of Christ was used for all sorts of evil deeds, but this t was the time men made it, not whatGod had wanted, but we do have free will don't we?? Yours in the Ever Living Christ, Larry Yours in the Ever Living Chrsit, Larry
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Alleluja
Full Member
James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Posts: 125
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Post by Alleluja on Jul 15, 2003 11:51:46 GMT -5
So how does the events of Revelation play into this theory? For example when was the Abomination that causes Desolation set up in the Temple? The Temple was destroyed in 70AD before the book of Revelation was written in approximately 96AD so how could it have been set up there if the temple did not exist ? Hi ya all! Sorry, i didn't get back to this prompty ....this thread sure has a lot of attention.... good....that keeps us all searching HIS WORD!
ok, here is some History:
www.tfdixie.com/parshat/vayeishev/006.html
www.tfdixie.com/parshat/vayeishev/006.htm
biblicalholidays.com/Hanukkah/hanukkah_in_bible_times.htm
religion.rutgers.edu/iho/antioch.html#Temple
The cpkmtyollic Latin summary of Livy's text includes the following overview: "Antiochus (IV), son of Antiochus (III), whom his father had given to the Romans as a hostage, was sent from the City (of Rome) back to the kingdom of Syria upon the death of his brother Seleucus [in 175 BCE], who had succeeded their father when he died. Apart from being religious, which led him to erect many magnificent temples in many places --- (e.g.) the one to Olympian Zeus at Athens and to Capitoline Zeus [ = Jupiter] at Antioch --- he was very poor at playing the king." -- Periocha 41.
Livy, From the Founding of the City (of Rome) 41.20.1-10
Josephus, Antiquities 12.237-241
Septuagint, 1 Maccabees 1:20-24
Hebrew Bible, Daniel 11:21-22, 28-36
Now in the year 143 [= 169 BCE] after Antiochus (IV) had defeated Egypt he returned by way of Israel and went up to Jerusalem with a strong army.
21 And in his arrogance he entered the sanctuary. And he took the golden altar and the menorah, with all its lamps for light;
22 and the table for the bread of the presence; the cups, the bowls, the golden censers and the veil (to the holy of holies). He even stripped the cornices and golden ornament from the temple facade.
23 And he took away the gold and silver and precious vessels. He also took all the hidden treasures he could find.
24 Now taking all of this he returned to his own country [Antioch, Syria], having committed murder and spoken with great arrogance.
Then the king wrote to his kingdom; that all were to be ONE PEOPLE
42 and each (subject) was to abandon his (native) customs. All the gentiles accepted the king's edict.
43 And many in Israel were content with his culture. They sacrificed to idols and profaned the Sabbath.
44 The king sent messengers to hand-deliver scrolls to Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, ordering them to adopt customs foreign to the land:
45 To prohibit holocausts and sacrifices; and libations in the sanctuary and to profane the Sabbaths and feast days; 46 to desecrate the sanctuary and its holy ones; 47 to build high altars and shrines and idols; to sacrifice swine and unclean animals; 48 and to leave their sons uncircumcised; and to let their lives be defiled by every kind of impurity and abomination. 49 They were to forget the Torah and change all their observances. 50 And whoever refused to act in accordance with the king's word was to be executed... 54 On the 15th day of cHislev in the year 145 [= 6 Dec 167 BCE], the king erected the abomination that desecrates on the altar of burnt-offerings. And in cities around Judah they built high altars. 55 And they sacrificed incense at the doors of houses and in the streets. 56 Also, when they found Torah scrolls they tore them up and burnt them. 57 And whenever someone was found with a scroll of the covenant or observing the Torah, he was put to death under the king's decree.
DID YOU SEE THAT # 54 On the 15th day of cHislev in the year 145 [= 6 Dec 167 BCE], the king erected the abomination that desecrates on the altar of burnt-offerings. And in cities around Judah they built high altars.
THIS is History, facts, truth....documented and researched!
But remember...this is a pattern, a shadow of a thing to come again....ON THE DAY OF INDIGNATION ... not only the Indignation of The Holy Father Creator God, but the Indignation of Jesus Christ, the Atonement for mankind. i am sure that the events will unfold again in Jerusalem in the near future, because the stage is set...the work has been done and the NEW TEMPLE Could be erected in a matter of days!!!!! All that is needed is for the Dome to be toppled by an earthquake...or Archeology to find a CORRECTED SITE for the original Temple!!!
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 15, 2003 12:15:41 GMT -5
Rev. 3:3 "....If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know the hour..." So to watch means will know the hour. Matthew 24 is saying this too. Matthew 24:43 if the goodman...had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched..." Watching means you will know what hour the Lord is coming as a thief on the wicked. Interesting scripture. Revelation 3:3. Revelation 3:3 is an actual letter, actually written for and delvered to actual 1st century air breathing, blood pumping Christians at the actual Church of Sardis. In that Letter, Jesus promised those actual 1st century Christians that if THEY did not watch, He would come to THEM as a theif. This irrefutably places the 2nd coming, the ONLY coming as a theif taught in scripture, in the 1st century. Jesus promised to return to the Church at Sardis, if He did not come to them as a theif as He promised them He would, then He lied. Jesus can not Lie, therefore He must have returned as a theif to them in the 1st century, or He is not the Messiah. The instruction to "watch" can only be relevant to those who would SEE what they were watching for.
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Post by woodyblueeyes on Jul 15, 2003 14:41:55 GMT -5
Alleluja, These pkmtyolpages that you posted were written for those they were addressed to not you and I. Therefore they could have been fulfilled in the year Larry talks about. It is a possibility as much as it happening now would be a possibility. [qoute] I would offer that scripture in the Bible is written for you and I and Alleluja and Larry and everyone else in the world today, JUST as it was written for the people in the letters. IF those were just letters to the people of that time and held no further significance, don't you think that God would have left them out of the Bible??
Sheaves could also mean armies couldn't it? Jesus coming in the Clouds is also depicted in how He ascended to heaven.. The discription in Acts 1:8-10 says that He was taken up in a cloud and they could not see Him after the cloud came.. so cloud could signify that it is really a spiritual...spiritual ascention because if you will remember, He just 'popped' in on the disciples more than once... He was already changed from corruptible to incorruptible so He really could just pop anywhere. Just some thoughts to mull over... I don't believe that Jesus just "popped" in on the disciples here and there. I'm sure there is someone who might have a timetable for when Jesus was with the disciples after his death. But in Acts, Chapter 1 verse 9 tells of Jesus ascending into the clouds and out of their sight...WHAT a wonderful moment that must have been for them. I don't believe however that it was a spiritual ascension. In the 20th Chapter of John verse 27, Jesus said "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach tither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
If Jesus were a spirit at that point, then they could have poked and prodded anywhere on him and their hands would have gone through, but Jesus showed them that he was real, he was there, and HE WAS GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think his ascension in Acts and the disciples losing sight of him in the clouds would be just as an aircraft today would take off from a runway, and you could see it until it went into the clouds...you can't see it anymore, but it's still real....
again, just some more thoughts...
Woody
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Post by parousia70 on Jul 15, 2003 15:58:20 GMT -5
I think any historican of any value, and interest in the church will give you a timeline of 95-96 A.D. for Revelations.
I know of NO competent historican who would give other dates than that, and if they do, I would like to see their documentation. Quotes from Scholars on the Date of Revelation Robert Young (late 1800s) "It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Concise Critical Comments on the Holy Bible, by Robert Young. Published by Pickering and Inglis, London and Glasgow, (no date), Page 179 of the "New Covenant" section. See also: Young's Concise Critical Bible Commmentary, Baker Book House, March 1977, ISBN: 0-8010-9914-5, pg 178.) Philip Schaff (1877) "On two points I have changed my opinion--the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1) "The early date [of Revelation] is now accepted by perhaps the majority of scholars." (Enyclopedia 3:2036) "Tertullian's legend of the Roman oil-martyrdom of John seems to point to Nero rather than to any other emperor, and was so understood by Jerome. (Adv. Jovin. 1.26) (History 1:428) "The destruction of Jerusalem would be a worthy theme for the genius of a Christian Homer. It has been called 'the most soul-stirring of all ancient history.' But there was no Jeremiah to sing the funeral dirge of the city of David and Solomon. The Apocalypse was already written, and had predicted that the heathen "shall tread the holy city under foot forty and two months." (The History of the Christian Church, Vol I; 6:38) George E. Ladd (1972) "The problem with this [Domitian date] theory is that there is no evidence that during the last decade of the first century there occurred any open and systematic persecution of the church." (George E. Ladd, A Commentary on Revelation - Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972, p. 8.) Steve Gregg (1997) "Many scholars, including those supportive of a late date, have said that there is no historical proof that there was an empire-wide persecution of Christians even in Domitian's reign." (Revelation: Four Views, p.16) Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown (1871) "The following arguments favor an earlier date, namely, under Nero: (1) Eusebius [Demonstration of the Gospel] unites in the same sentence John's banishment with the stoning of James and the beheading of Paul, which were under Nero. (2) Clement Of Alexandria's story of the robber reclaimed by John, after he had pursued, and with difficulty overtaken him, accords better with John then being a younger man than under Domitian, when he was one hundred years old. (3) Arethas, in the sixth century, applies the sixth seal to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), adding that the Apocalypse was written before that event. So the Syriac version states he was banished by Nero the Caesar. (4) Laodicea was overthrown by an earthquake (A.D. 60) but was immediately rebuilt, so that its being called "rich and increased with goods" is not incompatible with this book having been written under the Neronian persecution (A.D. 64)...(5) Cerinthus is stated to have died before John; as then he borrowed much in his Pseudo-Apocalypse from John's, it is likely the latter was at an earlier date than Domitian's reign. See Tilloch's Introduction to Apocalypse. But the Pauline benediction (Re 1:4) implies it was written after Paul's death under Nero." (Commentary Critical and Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible - 1871) A.N. Wilson (1977) "There is no concrete and inescapable reference, in any of the New Testament books, to the destruction of Jerusalem, and is this in itself not a pretty surprising fact? Would we not expect one of these writers, particularly those of a triumphalist turn of mind, to make it clear that the very core and centre of Jewish worship had been obliterated? Such a radical view inspired J.A.T. Robinson's 'Redating the New Testament,' which made a spirited case for supposing that all the books of the canon were completed before 70." (Paul: The Mind of the Apostle - p. 254) "The historian who tries to date and place John's Revelation is guided by the author to a quite specific time span. The words of Revelation are written down four years after the Roman fire, and shortly after Nero's own death. We know that they were written before the ultimate calamity of the Sack of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70...He writes of the earthly temple as still in existence [Rev 11:1-2]." (Paul: The Mind of the Apostle - p. 11) "In Paul's lifetime, and Nero's, there was no such thing as the New Testament--even though some of its individual writings (perhaps all of them in some primitive form) could be dated to before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70." (Paul: The Mind of the Apostle - p. 19) Testimony from Early Church History Epiphanius of Salamis (315-403) "[John], who prophesied in the time of Claudius [Nero]...the prophetic word according to the Apocalypse being disclosed." (Epiphanius, Panarion/Heresies 51:12,33) Clement (150-215) "For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius,was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero." (Miscellanies 7:17.) (On the Timing of John's Banishment) "And to give you confidence, when you have thus truly repented, that there remains for you a trustworthy hope of salvation, hear a story that is no mere story, but a true account of John the apostle that has been handed down and preserved in memory. When after the death of the tyrant [previously identified as Nero] he removed from the island of Patmos to Ephesus, he used to journey by request to the neighboring districts of the Gentiles, in some places to appoint bishops, in others to regulate whole churches, in others to set among the clergy some one man, it may be, of those indicated by the Spirit." (Who is the Rich Man that shall be Saved?; Section 42) The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170) "the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name." "John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. " (ANF 5:603) Note on the Muratorian Canon: Sometime between A.D. 170 and 200, someone drew up a list of canonical books. This list, known as the Muratorian Canon, is the oldest Latin church document of Rome, and of very great importance for the history of the canon. The witness of this manuscript, which is from the very era of Irenaeus and just prior to Clement of Alexandria, virtually demands the early date for Revelation. The relevant portion of the document states that "the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name" and "John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all." The writer of the Canon clearly teaches that John preceded Paul in writing letters to seven churches. Yet, church historians are agreed that Paul died before A.D. 70, either in A.D. 67 or 68. Syriac Vulgate Bible (sixth century) "The Apocalypse of St. John, written in Patmos, whither John was sent by Nero Caesar." (Opening Title for the Book of Revelation) Arethas (sixth century) "Arethas in the sixth century, applies the sixth seal to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), adding that the Apocalypse was written before that event" (From Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible, 1871) (On Revelation 6:12) "Some refer this to the siege of Jerusalem by Vespasian." (On Revelation 7:1) "Here, then, were manifestly shown to the Evangelist what things were to befall the Jews in their war against the Romans, in the way of avenging the sufferings inflicted upon Christ." (On Revelation 7:4) "When the Evangelist received these oracles, the destruction in which the Jews were involved was not yet inflicted by the Romans." Papias (first century) "Because of a statement by Papias, an early church father, that John the Apostle was martyred before a.d. 70, the Johannine authorship has been questioned." (John F. Walvoord on the Date of Revelation - The Bible Knowledge Commentary, p. 925) "A fragment is, however, attributed to Papias which states that "John the theologian and James his brother were killed by the Jews". (Chapman, John. St. Papias. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XI [Online Edition 2002]. Retrieved November 29, 2002 from www.newadvent.org/cathen/11457c.htm)
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