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Post by Onion on Apr 29, 2004 15:22:03 GMT -5
Even genesda and I don't get along, but still, this is uncalled for. Hey I just post the link. However, he did write something about firing a bullet theough some guy's head at an airport. But that of course IS called for in his world.
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Post by MorningStar on Apr 30, 2004 10:30:16 GMT -5
Fourth Circuit Moussaoui Ruling Is a Loss for the Constitution by Jacob G. Hornberger, April 30, 2004 www.fff.org/comment/com0404o.aspAlthough the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals paid the obligatory lip service to the Sixth Amendment in the Zacharias Moussaoui case, in an audacious act of judicial activism, its ruling effectively rewrote and negated the Sixth Amendment to account for the government’s new “war on terrorism.” While ostensibly upholding the Constitution, the court’s ruling was actually a big win for the government and a big loss for the Constitution.
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Post by MorningStar on May 5, 2004 14:34:14 GMT -5
Another article/opinion: texascitysun.com/print.pkmtyollo?wcd=5345The federal government argues the war on terrorism gives the government power to seize Americans and hold them without charges for as long as it takes to ensure they are not a danger to the nation.
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Post by Kee on May 6, 2004 0:30:22 GMT -5
It's just a guess, but I do believe we are witnessing our very Constitution being unravelled before our very eyes. And not just because of this...but rather...it is yet another demise.
I wonder at what point we will see evidence of REAL public outrage over loosing our liberty bit by bit?
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Post by MorningStar on May 6, 2004 9:53:17 GMT -5
It's just a guess, but I do believe we are witnessing our very Constitution being unravelled before our very eyes. And not just because of this...but rather...it is yet another demise. I wonder at what point we will see evidence of REAL public outrage over loosing our liberty bit by bit? As long as we can watch our DVDs, play our games, get our 'net porn, watch the wars on CNN, and shop at Wal*Mart, I'm sure most of America won't care.
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Post by genesda on May 7, 2004 7:09:56 GMT -5
but i would have to question -- why was he in chicago? are people who are terrorists or suspected of being so able to come back here and hide? if so then why would it matter if we'd know who was "thinking" of the hideous acts of 9/11 -- if we didn't have proof positive or conclusive evidentiary support -- they'd then just be walking around anyway right -- we have no grouds to hold them on suspicion (spx). MS -- i know i'm not putting that through properly, i only hope you can figure out where i'm trying to come from. i'm on a borrowed system as mine is being invaded by pop up's and i have our IT guys trying to figure out what's what! it's a royal pain but... anyway, i just don't think that someone, once they choose to go against america can then hide within or behind it. I understand you, and I agree. He was acting zagainst the U.S. and not just comitting a criminal act. His actions were treason. Just execute him. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 7, 2004 7:40:28 GMT -5
I think I know what you're saying M, but from what I understand, this guy didn't fight with the Taliban. He is only a suspected terrorist, and being held as a 'enemy combatant'. Its still my view that no matter how suspect, he should still have his rights under the law. Sure. Turn him loose and wait until he gets some radioactive material that can kill thousands, let hin carry out his plans and then arrest him, right? [/color]
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Post by MorningStar on May 7, 2004 8:23:46 GMT -5
Sure. Turn him loose and wait until he gets some radioactive material that can kill thousands, let hin carry out his plans and then arrest him, right? [/color][/quote] Considering no evidence has been presented against him and he hasn't even been charged with a crime, yes - turn him loose. Follow the law as it applies to our citizens. Wonderful thing, that due process stuff....
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Post by genesda on May 10, 2004 7:53:17 GMT -5
Considering no evidence has been presented against him and he hasn't even been charged with a crime, yes - turn him loose. Follow the law as it applies to our citizens. Wonderful thing, that due process stuff.... There are not ordinary times we're living in. 9/11 changed everything. The rights of the average citizen are violated daily by the legal system through lying police officers, and in some cases the courts. I don't see why speccial attention should be given to someone who is dangerous to hundreds or even thousands of citizens. The Government didn't just pluck him out of thin air and arrest him. He is connected even though he hasn't had a trial yet. We don't have the evidence that is waiting his trial, whenever that is. [/color]
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Post by marysia on May 10, 2004 14:06:35 GMT -5
Considering no evidence has been presented against him and he hasn't even been charged with a crime, yes - turn him loose. Follow the law as it applies to our citizens. Wonderful thing, that due process stuff.... There are not ordinary times we're living in. 9/11 changed everything. The rights of the average citizen are violated daily by the legal system through lying police officers, and in some cases the courts. I don't see why speccial attention should be given to someone who is dangerous to hundreds or even thousands of citizens. The Government didn't just pluck him out of thin air and arrest him. He is connected even though he hasn't had a trial yet. We don't have the evidence that is waiting his trial, whenever that is. [/color][/quote] actually, just had lunch with kenneth starr (okay there were 650 other people there too but still ) and he touched on this -- or i believe it was this guy. he spoke a little about the case -- the guy was caught with an AK, was with a suspected terrorist group and a few other items that linnked him. (if this is the same case). he'll be coming up shortly before the judges. now, here's my comment... after hearing mr starr i realized - this is nothing new. did you realize that Pres Lincoln often detained civilians. remember WWII and the internment camps for the folks of Japanese heritage? the list goes on and on. in the times of war & national crisis -- they CAN detain people who are coming against and hold for as long as needed/until the crisis is over. oh and no, he said nothing about the blue dress
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Post by babysis on May 11, 2004 7:10:09 GMT -5
actually, just had lunch with kenneth starr (okay there were 650 other people there too but still ) and he touched on this -- or i believe it was this guy. he spoke a little about the case -- the guy was caught with an AK, was with a suspected terrorist group and a few other items that linnked him. (if this is the same case). he'll be coming up shortly before the judges. now, here's my comment... after hearing mr starr i realized - this is nothing new. did you realize that Pres Lincoln often detained civilians. remember WWII and the internment camps for the folks of Japanese heritage? the list goes on and on. in the times of war & national crisis -- they CAN detain people who are coming against and hold for as long as needed/until the crisis is over. oh and no, he said nothing about the blue dress marysia, surely you aren't saying the detainment camps were RIGHT??? Those were awful and something our country should be ashamed of.
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Post by marysia on May 11, 2004 9:24:29 GMT -5
marysia, surely you aren't saying the detainment camps were RIGHT??? Those were awful and something our country should be ashamed of. no - i agree - they were WRONG! it was moreso just the fact that in matters of conflict/war - things are approached/viewed differently.
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Post by MorningStar on May 19, 2004 11:59:29 GMT -5
Here is an editorial on detainments and such. Try to see past the extreme statements (comparing things going on to the Nazis) and see what he's saying. the Washington Post last week finally reported on imprisonment abroad of thousands of people, American citizens and others, who are being held by the CIA in what is politely known as a "rendition." These "detainees" are in no way protected by any law whatsoever. I have been in touch with one family whose son is imprisoned in Saudi Arabia. He is American citizen, a resident of Virginia, and a student at a Saudi university. Last June, he was seized by Saudi law enforcement as he prepared to come home for the summer. www.counterpunch.org/pkmtyolcel05182004.html
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Post by genesda on May 20, 2004 6:57:04 GMT -5
marysia, surely you aren't saying the detainment camps were RIGHT??? Those were awful and something our country should be ashamed of. I'm sorry good people had to suffer for the actions of the bad, but the US government was acting on the best information it had at the time, and we really don't know if any or how many lives were saved here by the internments. Am I ashamed? Not in the least. I had no part that I should be ashamed of and also I'm not ashamed of those who were acting in my best interest, even if they were wrong. I' see no need to place myself on a guilt trip. If that makes you feel better about yourself, then that's on you. What I'm ashamed of is that there are actually people who believe Kerry on his military service, his voting record, and his current confusions about which direction this coutry should head in the war against terror.
To know that there are people in this country who cannot seem to be able to see through his flip flopping and lying is what I'm ashamed of. [/color]
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Post by babysis on May 20, 2004 7:05:14 GMT -5
marysia, surely you aren't saying the detainment camps were RIGHT??? Those were awful and something our country should be ashamed of. I'm sorry good people had to suffer for the actions of the bad, but the US government was acting on the best information it had at the time, and we really don't know if any or how many lives were saved here by the internments. Am I ashamed? Not in the least. I had no part that I should be ashamed of and also I'm not ashamed of those who were acting in my best interest, even if they were wrong. I' see no need to place myself on a guilt trip. If that makes you feel better about yourself, then that's on you. What I'm ashamed of is that there are actually people who believe Kerry on his military service, his voting record, and his current confusions about which direction this coutry should head in the war against terror.
To know that there are people in this country who cannot seem to be able to see through his flip flopping and lying is what I'm ashamed of. [/color][/quote] I could care less about Kerry and whatever he is doing and what he spend his time in the military doing. I'm talking about the detainment camps and how it shouldn't have happened. I have no personal shame with that because I was not there. I am ashamed of our country at the time because they did something that was not right. They held U.S. citizens against their will with no probable cause. What if suddenly the enemy looked a lot like you and the U.S. decided to tell you that you had to go live in a "prison" for a year or two or however long because you may join the enemy (another country). Even when you said you would fight for your own country and die for your own country. You wouldn't like it too much. I doubt you would sit back and say, "Well, it's what's best for the country" You wouldn't be too pleased about having to leave a business you had built either to just fizzle out or have to sell it to your neighbor, hoping they would be kind enough to sell it back when you returned. It's fine to say, "It's for the safety of the country" when it doesn't infringe on you. I imagine the tables would be turned if it did affect you.
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