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Post by LauraJean on Oct 15, 2004 10:46:48 GMT -5
Great answers LauraJean. Just wanted to let you know. Back at ya, Bro. I thought this was a particularly brilliant articluation: Blessings! LJ
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 15, 2004 17:33:59 GMT -5
"Time" is relative. There's no absolute "time." TIme is always measures from event to event (as already stated).
Time is measured as a change in the physical properties of some given matter. Any definition of an interval of time such as a year, month, day, hour, minute, or second is based on some change in matter. This is how we humans perceive time -- through changes in our physical surroundings. When they don't change, we actually develope psychological disorders. Patients in ICUs with the 24/day lighting and constant care develope ICU psychosis. Time begins to pkmtyolp abnormaly for them.
For all equations in physics involving "time," that is, intervals of time, changes to matter are involved. To put it simply, without matter, there is no "time."
Before God created matter, there was no time.
Scott
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 16, 2004 9:32:09 GMT -5
"Time" is relative. There's no absolute "time." TIme is always measures from event to event (as already stated).
Time is measured as a change in the physical properties of some given matter. Any definition of an interval of time such as a year, month, day, hour, minute, or second is based on some change in matter. This is how we humans perceive time -- through changes in our physical surroundings. When they don't change, we actually develope psychological disorders. Patients in ICUs with the 24/day lighting and constant care develope ICU psychosis. Time begins to pkmtyolp abnormaly for them.
For all equations in physics involving "time," that is, intervals of time, changes to matter are involved. To put it simply, without matter, there is no "time."
Before God created matter, there was no time.
Scott Scott, I disagree with you, as I believe that matter has always existed along with Time. Christians believe that there was no matter before God created the universe. If that's the case, then how could the creative process have ever got underway? If you were to invent something, you would first need the raw materials with which to make it. It says in the Bible that God took some earth and created the first man out of it. Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 16, 2004 10:48:38 GMT -5
I believe that God never created the dimensions of Time and Space, nor did He create matter/energy. God exists in Time from "beginning" to "end". He said "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end". Yet we know that there was never a time when He didn't exist and there will never be a time when He ceases to exist. He occupies eternity which is "infinite time". God exists in Time, otherwise He would not have been able to create anything. Time had always existed before the Creation, and does not depend on the existence of 24 hour days.
Christian.
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Post by Traffic Demon on Oct 16, 2004 10:59:49 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianOmega7-11 - "Time had always existed before the Creation"
Actually, TarueBeliever's got it pretty close by saying "without matter, there is no 'time.'" The work of Hawking et. al has shown that before the beginning of the universe, the Big Bang, time didn't exist.
--TDv2.0 1:4:9
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 16, 2004 16:43:18 GMT -5
Scott, I disagree with you, as I believe that matter has always existed along with Time. Christians believe that there was no matter before God created the universe. If that's the case, then how could the creative process have ever got underway? If you were to invent something, you would first need the raw materials with which to make it. It says in the Bible that God took some earth and created the first man out of it. Christian. That is the how Christians believe that God created the universe, out of nothing. He did not need the matter to rearrange, or use to build the universe. What do you think the matter was doing before God decided to create the universe? Just lying around in blocks? As I stated in a response to you, if matter and energy and the rules of physics and everything still existed, then it would severely limit what and who God is. What you are arguing is for a finite God, and as Christians we believe in an infinite God.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 16, 2004 16:45:52 GMT -5
I believe that God never created the dimensions of Time and Space, nor did He create matter/energy. God exists in Time from "beginning" to "end". He said "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end". Yet we know that there was never a time when He didn't exist and there will never be a time when He ceases to exist. He occupies eternity which is "infinite time". God exists in Time, otherwise He would not have been able to create anything. Time had always existed before the Creation, and does not depend on the existence of 24 hour days. Christian. Andy, You need to read what we have written, and the reasons behind what we have written, and then do some studying on your own because you are showing just how ignorant you are. Remember "ignorant" is not an insult, it just means "lacking knowlegde." You do not understand the topic that you are talking about, and so are masking your ignorance by saying "I believe it is like this." I can say that I believe that the moon is made of green cheese, but if it isn't, then I am just proving my ignorance.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 18, 2004 5:09:41 GMT -5
Andy, You need to read what we have written, and the reasons behind what we have written, and then do some studying on your own because you are showing just how ignorant you are. Remember "ignorant" is not an insult, it just means "lacking knowlegde." You do not understand the topic that you are talking about, and so are masking your ignorance by saying "I believe it is like this." I can say that I believe that the moon is made of green cheese, but if it isn't, then I am just proving my ignorance. Just because some of my beliefs are unorthodox doesn't mean that I do not know what I'm talking about. Professor Stephen Hawking is no doubt considered to be unorthodox with many of his beliefs about Time and Space and how everything started. Here is a further contribution from me: God exists in Time, and Time exists in Him. Neither has a beginning, nor an end. God exists in Space, and Space exists in Him. Both are infinite. God created all things in Time, and not outside it. God created all things in Space, and not outside it. God is the source of all energy in the universe. Energy preceded matter, which He created. Did a time exist before God created everything? Yes. Therefore Time existed before the Creation. If that wasn't the case, the Creation would always have existed. And we are both agreed that that isn't the case. We humans have a limited, physical awareness of Time, based on such things as the pkmtyolping of the seasons and years. We assume that this is all that Time is. Says who? How can we truly appreciate the timeless aspect of Time? You haven't acknowledged that God exists in eternity, which is "infinite time", or "time without end". Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 18, 2004 5:32:46 GMT -5
That is the how Christians believe that God created the universe, out of nothing. He did not need the matter to rearrange, or use to build the universe. What do you think the matter was doing before God decided to create the universe? Just lying around in blocks? As I stated in a response to you, if matter and energy and the rules of physics and everything still existed, then it would severely limit what and who God is. What you are arguing is for a finite God, and as Christians we believe in an infinite God. I have already quoted Genesis ch.1, vv.1-2. But here it is again: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. Now the Earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters". It's interesting to note that there is no mention of the Earth not existing before the Creation, only that God had not yet fashioned it into what it would become. There was nothing living on it or in it at this point in Time. It was "formless and empty". It's also interesting to read that the Spirit of God was "hovering over the waters" So water existed before the Creation. And I take it that the Spirit was hovering over the waters in real time. I have a question for you: Did we exist before we were formed in our mothers' wombs? Christian.
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Post by Traffic Demon on Oct 18, 2004 7:21:23 GMT -5
I2AM4AndyChristianOmega7-11 - "Just because some of my beliefs are unorthodox doesn't mean that I do not know what I'm talking about."
No, but the fact that we have shown that you don't know what you're talking about is pretty indicative that you don't know what you're talking about.
"Professor Stephen Hawking is no doubt considered to be unorthodox with many of his beliefs about Time and Space and how everything started."
At times, perhaps, but unlike you, Hawking's conclusions are based on and supported by evidence while yours have none.
"God exists in Time, and Time exists in Him. Neither has a beginning, nor an end."
Except that you're wrong again about time, since it had a beginning in the Big Bang, and would have an end were the universe to collapse onto itself in a "Big Crunch."
"It's interesting to note that there is no mention of the Earth not existing before the Creation, only that God had not yet fashioned it into what it would become. There was nothing living on it or in it at this point in Time. It was 'formless and empty'. It's also interesting to read that the Spirit of God was "hovering over the waters" So water existed before the Creation. And I take it that the Spirit was hovering over the waters in real time."
Simply amazing that you're still insisting that those verses be interpreted literally, in spite of all the evidence that demonstrates that they cannot be. Repeat after me, fig-u-rat-ive.
--BDT 1:4:9
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 18, 2004 8:54:55 GMT -5
I have already quoted Genesis ch.1, vv.1-2. But here it is again: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. Now the Earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters". It's interesting to note that there is no mention of the Earth not existing before the Creation That's not how I read it at all. "In the Beginning" = at the beginning of time "God created the heavens and the Earth" = God made --out of nothing-- the Earth (and the heavens) "The Earth was formless and empty" = the Earth God had just made didn't have any form yet. The second sentence isn't a modifier of the first, it is a continuation of the story. The things of God's creation exist within time and space but God does not. Then who did? And who determined the rules by which these things would behave? Is this a contradiction of your other quote? Or are you changing your opinion? Peace, LJ
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 18, 2004 9:05:34 GMT -5
Traffic,
The problem with the Big Bang and the end of the universe is that they remain unproven theories. And the idea that Genesis, ch.1, vv.1-2 is figurative is a an unproven theory of yours. Professor Stephen Hawking's theories are unproven, including the one to do with Time travel. And I have no problem with basing my theories about God, Time, Space etc on what God's Word says. What do you base your theories on?
Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 18, 2004 9:11:48 GMT -5
What do you base your theories on? Andy. Ooh, ooh, I can answer this question. He bases his conclusions about the established theories on the evidence that God has left both in His creation, as well as in the Bible.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 18, 2004 9:18:37 GMT -5
The things of God's creation exist within time and space but God does not. And what do you base this on?Then who did? And who determined the rules by which these things would behave? In the Beginning you had Chaos. And out of that God created order. He began to create. Is this a contradiction of your other quote? Or are you changing your opinion? Not strictly speaking, as I wasn't sure at first whether matter had always existed along with energy. So I typed "matter/energy".
Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 18, 2004 9:24:13 GMT -5
The things of God's creation exist within time and space but God does not. And what do you base this on?Then who did? And who determined the rules by which these things would behave? In the Beginning you had Chaos. And out of that God created order. He began to create. Is this a contradiction of your other quote? Or are you changing your opinion? Not strictly speaking, as I wasn't sure at first whether matter had always existed along with energy. So I typed "matter/energy".
Andy.These views are based on Holy Scripture, scientific evidence, and philosophical arguments. Have you still not understood that your arguments are actually for a limited, non-omniscient, non-omnipresent God? The Bible specifically states that in the beginning there was nothing except God. God then created the universe out of nothing (creation ex nihilo). There was not choas, there was nothing.
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