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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 14, 2004 15:37:39 GMT -5
The reason that God has been existant for all time is that he is outside of time. The reason that God is omnipresent (present in all locations), is that he is outside of space. The three dimensions of space and one of time do not encompkmtyolp God, He is outside of these dimensions.
We do not comprehend what it is like to be outside of these dimensions because our only point of reference is being in them. Do you understand?
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 15, 2004 6:56:37 GMT -5
The reason that God has been existant for all time is that he is outside of time. The reason that God is omnipresent (present in all locations), is that he is outside of space. The three dimensions of space and one of time do not encompkmtyolp God, He is outside of these dimensions. We do not comprehend what it is like to be outside of these dimensions because our only point of reference is being in them. Do you understand? I understand, and I don't agree with you. Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 15, 2004 7:08:55 GMT -5
Very true......this unique position God holds would either place Him outside of time, or He is not governed by the law of time. God bless Both God and Time exist because of the other..... Christian.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 15, 2004 7:48:13 GMT -5
Philip, Cohdra,
I believe that Time has always existed for the following reasons:
1) God never changes, and was already capable of creating things before He did.
2) The very act of creating occurs in Time and Space. It says in the Bible that God created everything over six days and rested on the seventh.
3) There is no mention in the Bible of God creating Time, Space, matter/energy.
4) A time existed before God created the known universe.
5) God exists in eternity which is defined as "infinite time". And so, if Time will always exist, how can we be sure that it had a beginning? God didn't.
6) Time, Space, matter/energy have always co-existed along with God.
7) Time and Space are neither physical nor spiritual. They are dimensional.
Those are my thoughts.
Christian.
P.S: I don't think I'll devote much more to this, otherwise I'll send myself "round the bend". Question: Does Time bend? Now that's a thought!
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 15, 2004 8:00:59 GMT -5
Some more questions:
1) Would the dimension of Time have existed if we had never developed ways of measuring it?
2) Is it possible to accurately measure Time itself?
3) If the answer to one or both of these questions is "No", then what is "Time"?
Ouch! My brain hurts!
Christian. ;D
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 15, 2004 8:36:45 GMT -5
Both God and Time exist because of the other..... God created time. He also created (out of nothing, which is the definition of creation) the ways in which we measure time. GE 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, Peace, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 15, 2004 9:05:05 GMT -5
I believe that Time has always existed for the following reasons: 1) God never changes, and was already capable of creating things before He did. How does this prove that time always existed? It also says that God created time: GE 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day. .... GE 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,See above. See also: GE 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.There was never a "time" when God didn't exist, which is to say, as Codhra and Philip said, God exists outside of time. From Houghton Mifflin dictionary: 1) Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. 2) Continuing without interruption; perpetual. We know time had a linear (Earthly) beginning because God made it that way. He has also told us about the linear (Earthly) end. God existst apart from these things because God created them. Maybe you're taking the word "Created" too linghtly. The term, which means 1. To bring into being; to form out of nothing; to cause to exist. is not used casually, but describes what God had to work with, which is nothing. So when it says, "God created the heavens and the earth" it means He made all that is --and He made it out of nothing. Before God began His great creation, there was nothing. No time. No space. No energy. No matter. How can something be dimensional but not physical? Time and space are measurable and observable. Sounds pretty physical to me. But more to the point, who do you think gave time and space the properties they have? You seem so willing to limit God's greatness, His vastness, His creation. Like I've said before, sometimes you just have to let God be God. Sometimes what He tells us doesn't make sense, but that doesn't mean we have the freedom to change what he tells us into something that DOES make sense. Have a blessed day, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 15, 2004 9:10:42 GMT -5
Some more questions: 1) Would the dimension of Time have existed if we had never developed ways of measuring it? We didn't develop them. God gave them to us. GE 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years I don't understand this question. Did your watch stop? God gave us what we need in order to measure the pkmtyolpage of time. Did you mean something else by this question? I guess if you're looking for "yes or no" answers, the answers are "yes" and "yes," thanks be to God, our wonderful and marvelous creator. Blessings, LJ
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 15, 2004 9:22:07 GMT -5
1) God never changes, and was already capable of creating things before He did. Ok, I agree with this. God never changes. He has been around for all time, he was there before time began and will be there after time ends. That is the nature of God. 2) The very act of creating occurs in Time and Space. It says in the Bible that God created everything over six days and rested on the seventh. While I will not argue the symmantics or specifics of literal versus figurative days in this thread here, the reason that God is outside of time is in the very nature of time itself. By measuring time, you always have a time before you started measuring, and a time after you stop measuring. If God existed inside of time, then there would have to have been a time before when God did not exist. You can't have both exist for eternity, because of the nature of time. So God had to have created time if he existed before it. 3) There is no mention in the Bible of God creating Time, Space, matter/energy. Genesis 1:1 " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." There was a beginning to time. Time started at the beginning, when God spoke and the universe came into existence. It came into existence out of nothing. God created time and space when there previously was nothing. 4) A time existed before God created the known universe. God existed before the universe was created, he exists now while the universe exists, and he will exist after the universe has ceased to exist. Time existed when the universe was created and will end when the universe ceases to exist. 5) God exists in eternity which is defined as "infinite time". And so, if Time will always exist, how can we be sure that it had a beginning? God didn't. Because of the nature of time, the definition of time. In measuring time, there is always something previous to that measurement. That is what our human brains cannot comprehend, how it is like to live outside of time, because we are only used to living inside of time. 6) Time, Space, matter/energy have always co-existed along with God. If time and space, matter and energy always existed, then God would not have created the universe out of nothing. He would have used the time and space and matter and energy already present to create the universe. Also, if it all existed with God, then you are saying that God did not create the laws of thermodynamics, the laws of physics, gravity, entropy, enthalpy, thermodynamics, etc. You are saying that God is subject to these laws instead of being the creator and author of these laws. Using this argument actually makes a non-God based evolutionary argument easier, so be careful, because I know that is not what you believe. Also, if God existed in time and space, then he could not be omnipresent or omniscient. He would be held to a single place in space, and a single moment in time. I don't think you are trying to argue that either. 7) Time and Space are neither physical nor spiritual. They are dimensional. Space is entirely physical. The definition of space is a distance. The three dimensions of space are x, y, and z, or length, width, and height. Quite literal physical entities. The distance from one point to the other. Time is also a physical parameter. It is the amount of time elapsed between one event and the other. If you want the exact definition of time right now in the scientific community, a second of time is defined as the time it takes a cessium atom to vibrate a set number of times. Hence the "atomic clock". Those are my thoughts. Christian. P.S: I don't think I'll devote much more to this, otherwise I'll send myself "round the bend". Question: Does Time bend? Now that's a thought! And I appreciate the thoughts. I think this is a rather interesting conversation also. As far as time bending, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but it has been proven that time is not constant. Have you ever heard of "time dillation theory"? Basically, it has been shown that time moves more slowly in areas of high gravity in comparison to the speed that time moves in areas of lower gravity. Time actually moves about 2 seconds slower per year on the surface of the sun than it does on the surface of the earth. So if you had a telescope through which you could see a planet who's gravity was a million times stronger than earth's gravity, then it would look like things and people on that planet were moving really, really slowly. And if a person on that planet looked through their telescope at earth, it would like we were moving very, very quickly. It is all relative based on the gravitational field affecting the pkmtyolpage of time. This is why you see clouds of matter seemingly floating around black holes. The gravitational field is so immense that at the event horizon of the black hole, time almost stands still, so it can actually take a long, long time for matter to collapse into a black hole, even though if you were that matter, it would seem like it was instant to you.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 15, 2004 9:26:39 GMT -5
Some more questions: 1) Would the dimension of Time have existed if we had never developed ways of measuring it? Just because it is not measured does not mean that it doesn't exist. The definition of time is just the amount it takes from one event to another. So no matter what, there will always be ways of measuring time, whether that is time between sunrise and sunrise, or light travelling a meter in a vacuum, or the vibration of a cessium atom. 2) Is it possible to accurately measure Time itself? Depends on your definition of "accurate." As a scientist, I know that accuracy means how close to the "true value" a measurement is. So, can we measure time out to 10 decimal places? Probably. Can we measure time out to 1,000,000 decimal places. Probably not. 3) If the answer to one or both of these questions is "No", then what is "Time"? Ouch! My brain hurts! Christian. ;D The answers are yes, and it depends, so not no to either. You just need to get your definition of time straight.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 15, 2004 9:28:17 GMT -5
God created time. He also created (out of nothing, which is the definition of creation) the ways in which we measure time. GE 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, Peace, LJ Laura, You're referring here to Earth Time, not Universal Time. And the interesting thing about Earth Time is that it's different, depending on which geographical Time Zone you happen to be in. It's also the case that some countries, including China, celebrate their new year after we have celebrated ours. And then there's the fact that the Jewish calendar year is different to ours. I can't remember what their year is. Do they celebrate their new year at about the same time as us? Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 15, 2004 9:28:56 GMT -5
Great answers LauraJean. Just wanted to let you know.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 15, 2004 9:32:30 GMT -5
Laura, You're referring here to Earth Time, not Universal Time. And the interesting thing about Earth Time is that it's different, depending on which geographical Time Zone you happen to be in. It's also the case that some countries, including China, celebrate their new year after we have celebrated ours. And then there's the fact that the Jewish calendar year is different to ours. I can't remember what their year is. Do they celebrate their new year at about the same time as us? Christian. First of all, time is the same over the whole planet. It is just the points of reference that are different. Time Zones - The sun and the moon rise and set at different times in the day because of the rotation of the earth. Only variations in the gravitational field would affect the speed of time in relation to different parts of the planet, and if we had such extreme gravitational differences to make differences in time noticable, not only would that be defying laws of physics, but it would also tear the planet apart. Calenders - The Jewish as well as many Asian calendars are set by the lunar cycle, not the solar cycle. These are different just because of the differences in orbits. The earth orbits around the sun while the moon orbits around the earth. Also different cultures have marked different places for the new year to start. January 1 is not a set in stone new year. Many new years were marked by the end of winter and the beggining of the harves season.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Oct 15, 2004 10:00:41 GMT -5
Philip, Cohdra, Laura,
Thank you for your thoughts. I realise that my views concerning the nature of Time, Space, matter/energy are controversial, and that what I'm saying is not immediately apparent to you. I guess you could say that I'm unconvential in my understanding of these things, and my understanding of scripture regarding them. But it's interesting what it says in Genesis ch.1, vv.1-2. And this before God had even started to create everything. Do any of you guys know what the Jewish year is and when it started? I'd be interested to know.
Christian.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 15, 2004 10:20:07 GMT -5
Philip, Cohdra, Laura, Thank you for your thoughts. I realise that my views concerning the nature of Time, Space, matter/energy are controversial, and that what I'm saying is not immediately apparent to you. I guess you could say that I'm unconvential in my understanding of these things, and my understanding of scripture regarding them. But it's interesting what it says in Genesis ch.1, vv.1-2. And this before God had even started to create everything. Do any of you guys know what the Jewish year is and when it started? I'd be interested to know. Christian. Andy, It is not really that your views are "controversial", it is just that you don't really understand what you are talking about. That is what we are trying to explain to you. As far as the Jewish calendar, here is an explanation: Background and History The Jewish calendar is primarily lunar, with each month beginning on the new moon, when the first sliver of moon becomes visible after the dark of the moon. In ancient times, the new months used to be determined by observation. When people observed the new moon, they would notify the Sanhedrin. When the Sanhedrin heard testimony from two independent, reliable eyewitnesses that the new moon occurred on a certain date, they would declare the rosh chodesh (first of the month) and send out messengers to tell people when the month began. The problem with strictly lunar calendars is that there are approximately 12.4 lunar months in every solar year, so a 12-month lunar calendar loses about 11 days every year and a 13-month lunar gains about 19 days every year. The months on such a calendar "drift" relative to the solar year. On a 12 month calendar, the month of Nissan, which is supposed to occur in the Spring, occurs 11 days earlier each year, eventually occurring in the Winter, the Fall, the Summer, and then the Spring again. To compensate for this drift, an extra month was occasionally added: a second month of Adar. The month of Nissan would occur 11 days earlier for two or three years, and then would jump forward 29 or 30 days, balancing out the drift. In the fourth century, Hillel II established a fixed calendar based on mathematical and astronomical calculations. This calendar, still in use, standardized the length of months and the addition of months over the course of a 19 year cycle, so that the lunar calendar realigns with the solar years. Adar II is added in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years of the cycle. The current cycle began in Jewish year 5758 (the year that began October 2, 1997). In addition, Yom Kippur should not fall adjacent to Shabbat, because this would cause difficulties in coordinating the fast with Shabbat, and Hoshanah Rabba should not fall on Saturday because it would interfere with the holiday's observances. A day is added to the month of Cheshvan or subtracted from the month of Kislev of the previous year to prevent these things from happening. Numbering of Jewish YearsThe year number on the Jewish calendar represents the number of years since creation, calculated by adding up the ages of people in the Bible back to the time of creation. Jews do not generally use the words "A.D." and "B.C." to refer to the years on the Gregorian calendar. "A.D." means "the year of our Lord," and Jews do not believe Jesus is the Lord. Instead, Jews use the abbreviations C.E. (Common or Christian Era) and B.C.E. (Before the Common Era). Months of the Jewish Year The "first month" of the Jewish calendar is the month of Nissan, in the spring, when pkmtyolpover occurs. However, the Jewish New Year is in Tishri, the seventh month, and that is when the year number is increased. This concept of different starting points for a year is not as strange as it might seem at first glance. The American "new year" starts in January, but the new "school year" starts in September, and many businesses have "fiscal years" that start at various times of the year. Similarly, the Jewish calendar has different starting points for different purposes. The names of the months of the Jewish calendar were adopted during the time of Ezra, after the return from the Babylonian exile. The names are actually Babylonian month names, brought back to Israel by the returning exiles. Note that most of the Bible refers to months by number, not by name. The Jewish calendar has the following months: (English - Number - Length - Gregorian Equivalent) Nissan - 1 - 30 days - March-April Iyar - 2 - 29 days - April-May Sivan - 3 - 30 days - May-June Tammuz - 4 - 29 days - June-July Av - 5 - 30 days - July-August Elul - 6 - 29 days - August-September Tishri - 7 - 30 days - September-October Cheshvan - 8 - 29 or 30 days - October-November Kislev - 9 - 30 or 29 days - November-December Tevet - 10 - 29 days - December-January Shevat - 11 - 30 days - January-February Adar - 12 - 29 or 30 days - February-March Adar II - 13 - 29 days - March-April In leap years, Adar has 30 days. In non-leap years, Adar has 29 days. The length of Cheshvan and Kislev are determined by complex calculations involving the time of day of the full moon of the following year's Tishri and the day of the week that Tishri would occur in the following year. I won't pretend to understand the mathematics involved, and I don't particularly recommend trying to figure it out. There are plenty of easily accessible computer programs that will calculate the Jewish calendar for more than a millennium to come. Note that the number of days between Nissan and Tishri is always the same. Because of this, the time from the first major festival (pkmtyolpover in Nissan) to the last major festival (Sukkot in Tishri) is always the same.
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