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Post by AuntRonda on Jun 6, 2004 10:29:41 GMT -5
Writer Stands Right Behind 'Left Behind'
Pastor's New Book Defends Popular Series, Pre-Trib Rapture Against Critics
By Allie Martin
May 27, 2004
(AgapePress) - An Oklahoma pastor is responding to recent attacks on the popular end times series Left Behind.
Several books have been written in attempts to undercut and discredit the Left Behind series of novels by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. The scripture-based thrillers follow fictional characters as they face end times events from the rapture of the saints -- where true Christians are gathered up to be with the Lord in Heaven -- and the subsequent tribulation on Earth, leading up to the Apocalypse and Christ's second coming.
Although some have criticized the theological interpretation of scripture upon which the Left Behind series is based, author Mark Hitch*** has set himself the task of upholding it. In his new nonfiction book, The Truth Behind Left Behind (Multnomah, 2004), he defends the pre-tribulation rapture that serves as the backdrop for the series by LaHaye and Jenkins.
Hitch*** says the most common argument, that the pre-tribulation rapture is a fairly recent idea, is simply not true. He notes that this belief can be found in a Christian sermon that dates back to the 4th century A.D., and there is documentation of a Brother Dolcino clearly presenting the idea around 1300 A.D.
Also, the author notes, there was Morgan Edwards, a Brown University president, who held to a pre-tribulation rapture during the 1700s, long before the belief was popularized by John Darby in the 1800s. "The idea that this is some new view that just came around about 150 years ago really is just not historically accurate," Hitch*** says.
The Truth Behind Left Behind sets out to refute the arguments of critics who claim this "pre-trib" notion of the rapture is false. But Hitch*** believes the series reflects an accurate understanding of the last days, and current events seem to lend additional support.
Hitch*** notes that Israel plays a major role not only in the popular fiction books but also in the actual events that will lead to the return of Christ. "All these prophecies of Israel being invaded, and the anti-Christ coming, and there being a temple in Israel -- all of that's contingent on the people being back in the land," he explains.
"Lo and behold, as many people had talked about through the centuries who believed our view of prophecy, Israel is back in the land now. We see that as a significant event," Hitch*** says.
Thomas Ice, executive director of the Pre-Tribulation Research Center co-wrote The Truth Behind Left Behind.
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Post by BethTN on Jun 7, 2004 0:55:32 GMT -5
hi *smile*
I read this and the sermon by Pseudo Ephraem
One of the arguments most opponents to the Rapture use is that it can't be right as it was a theory developed much later in comparison to other views. They all say that it began around 1830 through the ministry of J.N.Darby. Actually the pretrib rapture position does have historical precedent. A sermon was delivered in AD 373 by the Byzantine leader Pseudo-Ephraem entitled "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World" or "Sermon on the End fo the World". This includes a concept very similar to the pretrib rapture
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Post by AuntRonda on Jun 7, 2004 8:33:34 GMT -5
I got this via email.
I have a google news alert set for the Left Behind series.....
It doesn't always work the way I want it to. Any news piece with the words "left behind" in it gets sent. But that's okay. I get the news on the left behing series.
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Post by Ben johnson on Jun 7, 2004 12:07:11 GMT -5
I tried to talk with Dr. Ice, not really discussing Rapture, but found him closed to even casual conversation; twice he just walked away from me while I was talking (had some meeting or something to go to). Very rude.
The irony of the "leftbehind concept", is that Luke 17:37, those TAKEN are thrown to vultures; the leftbehind are the CHRISTIANS!!!
Ice invents a convoluted theory of "staged rapture" --- this to justify the FACT that there are some raptured at a time he considers PRE-TRIB, but undeniably others raptured POST-TRIB. Thus "the Ratpure occurs in STAGES, the two MAIN stages separated by seven years!"
Uhm, excuse me, Dr. Ice --- if the MAIN RAPTURE occurs PRE, and the "Trib Martyrs" raptured POST (Rev20:4), then how does that accommodate the words, "the LIVING shall not preceed the DEAD --- the dead will be raised FIRST and THEN and only then we-living will be raptured!" (1Thess4:15-16)[/color]
Dr. Ice also ignores 2Thess2:1-4, which connects Jesus' "COMMING" and our "GATHERING" with a simple conjunction: "AND" ("kai"). It reads, "COMING/GATHERING", not "gathering and seven-years-later-His-coming".
We are gathered at His coming. His coming is at the end of the Tribulation.
"That will not happen unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed" --- this is DURING the Tribulation! 2Thess2:3
The Greek literally says, "not unless the apostasy and antichrist revealed" --- it is ONE-EVENT-not-unless-apostasy/revealing --- "Coming/gathering".
Dr. Ice tries to justify this by changing "KAI-AND" into a seven-year-split. There is no reason to even consider a "staged rapture", except to accomodate the idea of a "pre-trib-rapture". And there isn't one verse in the entire text that asserts "pre-Trib". Please give me ONE if you disagree...
Now --- as I posted on the Leftbehind Messageboard --- I am well aware of how many people have come to Jesus through the Leftbehind books; and I am confident that God can keep those who seek Him; I cannot condemn that which does good --- the books have brought MANY to salvation; so even though the DOCTRINE is in error, they are saved.
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Post by marysia on Jun 7, 2004 13:00:01 GMT -5
well ben -- i'm one of "them". although i'm not 100% certian on the whole "rapture" theory, I do believe CHrist WILL come again. Being an Rcc i've been taught that yes, Christ WILL come again. now the basic how, where and when -- I'll leave that up to God.
i think it is foolish for people to cast such negative light on the series. i think only the foolish people will see it for what it is NOT - biblical truth. i devoured the first 5 books in 4 days -- i became a hermit. my heart was so filled and my eyes so opened to what they had been closed to for sooooooo long - it was amazing. even to think -- hey what if that were to happen -- where would i be, where am i in my relationship with Christ -- i didn't like the asnwers i had for myself.
i do not feel lahaye and jenkins are prophets. i do feel that they opened a lot of eyes with their books. sure was it to make money -- yeah sure. however i'd rather buy that book and give them the money than a "smut" book. (won't name authors as that's not very polite).
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Buck1
Full Member
Posts: 120
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Post by Buck1 on Jun 8, 2004 21:22:43 GMT -5
"the LIVING shall not preceed the DEAD --- the dead will be raised FIRST and THEN and only then we-living will be raptured! [/b]" (1Thess4:15-16)[/color] [/quote] Quite impressive...since you have it in quotes, you have the only copy of a Bible in known existance with the unequivical translation of of the word rapture from ancient Greek. |
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Post by Cohdra on Jun 10, 2004 1:52:16 GMT -5
hi *smile* I read this and the sermon by Pseudo Ephraem One of the arguments most opponents to the Rapture use is that it can't be right as it was a theory developed much later in comparison to other views. They all say that it began around 1830 through the ministry of J.N.Darby. Actually the pretrib rapture position does have historical precedent. A sermon was delivered in AD 373 by the Byzantine leader Pseudo-Ephraem entitled "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World" or "Sermon on the End fo the World". This includes a concept very similar to the pretrib rapture I am not familiar with this historical precedent. If you can post it, I would very much be interested in reading it...perhaps a link? From a traditional non-denominational, bible-based perspective, any idea or thought that originated after the last book of the new testament would have to be held as tradition, and, since most non-orthodox Christians reject tradition, it would indeed be hypocritical to accept anything that developed post biblically. RC's and Orthodox are often attacked as being non-biblical because they hold tradition as being extremely important, and even necessary for a proper interpretation of scripture. What you are saying is that a later rapture interpretation has validity..once you go into that area, you need to start accepting other early Church tradition as being sound. You can't pick and choose...it really is either one way or the other; Either post-biblical tradition is true and sound, or it is not. Until I actually see this theory, I have to withhold judgement...but the most accurate and widely known facts indicate that John Darby visited a physically and possibly mentally ill woman in Scotland; when he got back to America, he was suddenly espousing the same belief that she held....a theory that came to her during one of the "visions" she had when extremely ill. I have done quite a bit of research into the history of the rapture theory, and it is my humble opinion that its origins are shaky at best, possibly sinister at worst. What a trick the devil might be playing on many Christians...getting them to believe that they are more special than any Christians that have ever lived before them, and that they will be "saved" from God's tribulation. Many will be so disillusioned when they are not raptured in the manner they have falsely counted on, that they will fall away. The Rapture Theory is nothing more than a spiritual insurance policy for those that don't want to suffer for Christ...it's there way of getting out of it (so they hope). Many have come to Christ because of what could be a false belief; a selfish reason. That has no place in a Christian heart. I remain neutral on the whole issue. I believe that the Bible hints at something, but is too vague to formulate any type of rapture theory. If it happens, fine...but I wouldn't count on it. Safer to assume that you will be here suffering for Christ, and perhaps helping others while enduring it. Nowhere does Christ tell us that we will get out of suffering; on the contrary, we are told we will and we must. That alone should send warning bells to see how clearly this theory conflicts with Christ's very own message. That is the test...does Christ tell us we will get out of suffering, or does he tell us to carry our own crosses and bear it. Revelations itself has a message to Christians alive at that time, telling them to endure to the end...a wasted message if there are no Christians around to read it. People's wishful thinking is so strong they cease being able to see fact...because that fact might be extemely unpleasant. God bless |
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Post by BethTN on Jun 10, 2004 23:32:49 GMT -5
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Post by Cohdra on Jun 11, 2004 0:08:13 GMT -5
Ty so much for posting this...I'm going to go read it now...much appreciated  God bless |
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Post by Cohdra on Jun 11, 2004 0:26:42 GMT -5
Very interesting....it does seem to support a pre-trib rapture theory; There is only one slight difficulty...he is obviously talking about his own time.
When the Roman empire begins to be consumed by the sword, the coming of the Evil One is at hand. It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman empire.
The Roman Empire came to an end a very long time ago
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
There is no doubt, he is referring to his own time, none at all. There is no other logical way to read this. He was totally talking about these events occuring in his own lifetime
God bless
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Post by BethTN on Jun 13, 2004 2:03:14 GMT -5
some feel like the rapture and the 2nd coming are one in the same but I feel they are 2 separate events..when the rapture takes place we will meet christ in the air and his 2nd coming we will come to earth on horses with christ..
Titus 2:13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
2 timothy 4:1 charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
Paul tells us in 2 Thess 2:1-12 that the glorious appearing will not occur until the anti-christ is revealed
1 Th 1:10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
It tells us up above that god has promised us that the church is not appointed to the wrath of God or the Tribulation:
1 Thess 5:
9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our
Lord Jesus Christ
1 Thess 5:
God did not "appoint us to wrath" (the Tribulation) but to "obtain salvation" or deliverance from it, since so many saints will be martyred during the Tribulation. This promise cannot mean, then, that He will deliver believers DURING or THROUGH the time of the wrath.
I feel like that the tribulation is the wrath to come..here is why
Rev 6:
16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand
anyways it's really late and I couldn't sleep so I got on here for awhile need to get to bed for now be back tomorrow goodnite all *hugs*
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Post by genesda on Jun 15, 2004 6:11:15 GMT -5
well ben -- i'm one of "them". although i'm not 100% certian on the whole "rapture" theory, I do believe CHrist WILL come again. Being an Rcc i've been taught that yes, Christ WILL come again. now the basic how, where and when -- I'll leave that up to God. The bible doesn't tell us exactly when, but it does tell us when we can know the time is near, as it is now. [/color] i think it is foolish for people to cast such negative light on the series. i think only the foolish people will see it for what it is NOT - biblical truth. i devoured the first 5 books in 4 days -- i became a hermit. my heart was so filled and my eyes so opened to what they had been closed to for sooooooo long - it was amazing. even to think -- hey what if that were to happen -- where would i be, where am i in my relationship with Christ -- i didn't like the asnwers i had for myself. Does this mean that you will now denounce the Rcc? After all, Tim Lehaye preaches a different gospel than what Rome does.
You've just proved that emotions are not to be trusted. The "left behind" series is a joke and a lie. they may have some truth, but that truth is distorted and is setting the world up to receive Satan as Jesus by impersonation. Tim Lehaye ansd others have been deceived by their refusal to accept biblical truths that they disagree with and others have bought into their deceptions.
There will be no 7 year period after Christ comes for the saved and this is what Satan wants eyes closed to. By getting people to believe they will have a second chance at salvation when their eyes are opened by the "rapture" of the saved, they will be lost because they waited for proof rather than accept the biblical truths. [/color] i do not feel lahaye and jenkins are prophets. They are prophets of doom. [/color] i do feel that they opened a lot of eyes with their books. Actually, their eyes have been shut to the biblical truth. [/color] sure was it to make money -- yeah sure. however i'd rather buy that book and give them the money than a "smut" book. (won't name authors as that's not very polite). Both will cause some to be lost forever, so what difference does it make? I'll tell you the difference, Tim Lehaye's books will make some feel better about themselves while they are still lost!
Pastors and "priests" can be deceived just like anyone else. If you don't believe that, just look at the 9 commandments they preach about. [/color] |
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Post by BethTN on Jun 15, 2004 11:38:09 GMT -5
Gene
why do you try to judge people on what they believe??? the only one that judges us is Jesus and for you to tell anyone they are wrong is wrong because Jesus is are judge...to put someone down in what they believe is wrong...Just because you believe in something I think is wrong I'm not going to judge you it isn't my place and I think you should do the same.Just because we see the bible diff don't make us anyless of a person so please don't judge because you see it diff..
1Cr 6:5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
(hugsssssssss)))))))))))))))) bye
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Post by genesda on Jun 15, 2004 12:42:30 GMT -5
Gene why do you try to judge people on what they believe??? the only one that judges us is Jesus and for you to tell anyone they are wrong is wrong because Jesus is are judge...to put someone down in what they believe is wrong...Just because you believe in something I think is wrong I'm not going to judge you it isn't my place and I think you should do the same.Just because we see the bible diff don't make us anyless of a person so please don't judge because you see it diff.. 1Cr 6:5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. (hugsssssssss)))))))))))))))) bye You don't seem to understand the difference between judging and correction.
You didn't mention the scripture that tells us "all scripture is God breathwed and is profitable for doctrine, correction, rebuke and instruction in righteousness".
Beliefs should never be based on one or two verses.
[/color] |
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Post by BethTN on Jun 15, 2004 15:25:19 GMT -5
this is not judging?  do not feel lahaye and jenkins are prophets. They are prophets of doom? ?<--------------- hmmmmmm what do you call that? just because they see it diff then you don't meen they are doomed we are here to bring people to christ not push what are view on things are and if lahaye and Jenkins are bring people to christ that is the main thing once they are brought to christ they can read the bible and let the holy spirit guide them to the truth I don't base it on one or two verses.I let the holy spirit guide me through the whole chapter not just one verse remeber we are all christians here we are all on the same team right?? I can only tell you how I read into it not to tell you you need to see it my way because i think mine is the only one that is right I'm not like that..I read your post and I will take my bible and find the truth for myself I don't take yours or anyone else's as truth.I read it for myself and let the holy spirit guide me to the truth you have ask me how I would feel if there was not a rapture and I told you it wouldn't make me feel any diff.....How about YOU would you feel any diff if there was one would you be disappointed?? I'm not saying you have to believe in the rapture I'm just asking because you did....Just remember we are on the same team here(((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))) |
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