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Post by genesda on May 14, 2004 6:27:00 GMT -5
Gene,
Your "definition" of sin, "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4b KJV) comes from the the faulty translation of the Greek text by the authors of the King James Version of the Bible. In the original Greek, the verse reads …πας ο ποιων την αμαρτιαν και την ανομιαν ποιει και η αμαρτια εστιν η ανομιαHere’s the same verse transliterated into English characters …pa's ho poiô'n tê'n hamarti'an kai' tê'n anomi'an poiei' , kai' hê hamarti'a esti'n hê anomi'a .Translating each word from Greek to English ...pa's (adjective nominative singular masculine) allho poiô'n (verb present active participle nominative singular masculine) he who is doing/makingtê'n hamarti'an (noun accusitive singular feminine) the sinkai' (conjunction) andtê'n anomi'an (noun accusitive singular feminine) the lawlessness/lawless conductpoiei' (verb present active indicative 3rd person singular) he makes/does, (punctuation) ,kai' (conjunction) andhê hamarti'a (noun nominative singular feminine) the sinesti'n (verb present active indicative 3rd person singular) it ishê anomei'a (noun nominative singular feminine) the lawlessness/lawless conduct. (punctuation) .A rough translation would be …all he who is doing/making the sin and he lawlessness/lawless conduct he makes/does, and the sin it is the lawlessness/lawless conduct.A better translation would be …Everyone who is doing Sin, also does Lawlessness, and Sin is Lawlessness.From the NASB, 1 John 3:4 reads …Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.Sin is not disobedience of the Jewish Law. Sin is disobedience to God’s way in general. It’s disobedience to the civil authority God placed over us. It’s ignoring the convicting of the Holy Spirit to turn from evil and toward Christ. Sin is the whole "I want to be a bad boy/girl" rebellious attitude human beings are so into. People are always so ready to put themselves above any rules, like speed limits, curfews, not caring how much they might hurt other people. That’s "lawlessness." That’s Sin.
Scott Transgression of God's law is what sin is. I don't pay any attention to "Jewish law". Maybe you're too wrapped up in your Greek to understand this.
"Sin is transgression of the law" is correct in practice for Christians.
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Post by TarueBeliever on May 14, 2004 10:57:32 GMT -5
Transgression of God's law is what sin is. I don't pay any attention to "Jewish law". Maybe you're too wrapped up in your Greek to understand this.
"Sin is transgression of the law" is correct in practice for Christians. [/color][/quote] Transgression of what law? The Ten Commandments were given to "the Sons of Israel." They were a part of the Old Covenant. They were a part of the Jewish Law. But that Old Covenant has become "obsolete" ...And in the same way He {Jesus} took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood."Luke 22:20 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.Hebrews 8:13 Jesus is not only a mediator of a new covenant but of a better covenant ...But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.Hebrews 8:6 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.John 1:17 The New Covenant is not about our obedience to law ...For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.Romans 6:14 the Grace of God brings us salvation and teaches us to say no to sin ...11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age. Titus 2:11-12 The law could not teach us to say no to sin. Rather, it arouses our sinful pkmtyolpions ...For while we were in the flesh, the sinful pkmtyolpions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. Romans 7:5 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. Romans 7:7-8 The law can never teach us how to live righteously before God ..."The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;" 1 Corinthians 15:56 The New Covenant gives us the way to live, not by obeying law, but by trusting Christ to live His life through us ... For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.Galatians 5:17
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Post by Nicodemus on May 14, 2004 11:16:11 GMT -5
Scott, you do understand that Genesda has absolutely no capacity to comprehend spiritual truths, and that arguing with him only results in giving him another opportunity to spew sabbatarianism.
There really are some lost causes on this board - and why they are permitted to drive believers away - only the LORD knows!
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Post by genesda on May 18, 2004 6:41:39 GMT -5
Transgression of what law? The Ten Commandments were given to "the Sons of Israel." They were a part of the Old Covenant. They were a part of the Jewish Law. But that Old Covenant has become "obsolete" ...And in the same way He {Jesus} took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood."Luke 22:20 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.Hebrews 8:13 Jesus is not only a mediator of a new covenant but of a better covenant ...But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.Hebrews 8:6 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.John 1:17 The New Covenant is not about our obedience to law ...For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.Romans 6:14 the Grace of God brings us salvation and teaches us to say no to sin ...11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age. Titus 2:11-12 The law could not teach us to say no to sin. Rather, it arouses our sinful pkmtyolpions ...For while we were in the flesh, the sinful pkmtyolpions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. Romans 7:5 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. Romans 7:7-8 The law can never teach us how to live righteously before God ..."The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;" 1 Corinthians 15:56 The New Covenant gives us the way to live, not by obeying law, but by trusting Christ to live His life through us ... For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.Galatians 5:17 For all opf your words, you still don't get it. Try comprehending what Protestant wrote on the other thread concerning the "mark of the beast". He has a good post quoting the "Testimony" as being the tablets containing the 10 commandments and how they apply to Christians. He explained it much better than I do.
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Post by genesda on May 18, 2004 6:54:46 GMT -5
Scott, you do understand that Genesda has absolutely no capacity to comprehend spiritual truths, and that arguing with him only results in giving him another opportunity to spew sabbatarianism. There really are some lost causes on this board - and why they are permitted to drive believers away - only the LORD knows! I feel the same way about you. I'll never understand how anyone could ever believe God didn't know what He was doing when He wrote the commandments on the tablets and then applied them to only a few people of all that were on the Earth. You don't seem to be able to spiritually discern the truth of the scriptures and have accepted a diluted version of the gospel. The bible clearly says wilfull sinners will never see heaven, but you say it's not a sin to steal, commit adultry, lie, etc., because those laws are written on tablets that you claim are no longer binding on Christians. You don't seem to want to be honest enough to admit that there's only ONE commandment on the tablets that you disagree with, so you say ALL of them are abolished, but there is really only ONE that you deny.
" The Law and the Testimony" refers to the law Jesus gave Moses and the "Testimony" are the tablets containing the 10 commandments.
EXODUS 32:15-19. “And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony were in his hand. The tablets were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other they were written. Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.
EXODUS 31:18. “And when he had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God."
The Ten commandments are the testimony
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Post by Nicodemus on May 20, 2004 7:50:23 GMT -5
Your argument isn't with me, Genesda, it is with Paul the Apostle and the Book of Galatians. In this book it is clearly stated that the law "was added because of transgressions" - yet you refuse to acknowledge it. And you will never be able to acknowledge it without biblical salvation - which requires you to let CHRIST pay the entire penalty of the law for you.
But you won't do that.
Why?
Because you are too proud of yourself.
Yet, salvation is NOT of works, lest any many should boast.
Your boasting in the law in your condemnation.
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Post by genesda on May 20, 2004 9:50:30 GMT -5
Your argument isn't with me, Genesda, it is with Paul the Apostle and the Book of Galatians. In this book it is clearly stated that the law "was added because of transgressions" - yet you refuse to acknowledge it. And you will never be able to acknowledge it without biblical salvation - which requires you to let CHRIST pay the entire penalty of the law for you. But you won't do that. Why? Because you are too proud of yourself. Yet, salvation is NOT of works, lest any many should boast. Your boasting in the law in your condemnation. Once again, it's your understanding of Paul is where your confusion is. Where there is no law, there is no transgression/sin, so how can a law be added because of sin?
No law....no sin
established law.....law breakers/sin
How can anyone be accused of sinning when there is no definition/law saying what sin is?
You can't be accused of speeding when there is no speed limit. You can't be accused of running through a stop sign if there is no stop sign.
Also, I don't "boast" about the law or anything else as far as salvation is concerned. Your quote from Eph. is exactly correct. I do understand how it is applied to the rest of Paul's writings in the scriptures.
One more thing. I'm also not in denial of scriptures that seem to disagree with what I wish to believe. I try to understand how the scriptures are in harmony and try to clear up my misunderstandings, because there are no conflicts in the scriptures. There are only conflicting understandings.
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Post by genesda on May 26, 2004 8:25:18 GMT -5
Scott, you do understand that Genesda has absolutely no capacity to comprehend spiritual truths, and that arguing with him only results in giving him another opportunity to spew sabbatarianism. There really are some lost causes on this board - and why they are permitted to drive believers away - only the LORD knows! Drive away believers? Believers of what?
I'm not the one telling people to disregard God's commandments. Yoru hostility to God's word shows very loudly when you made the comment about "spewing" sabbatarianism as though it wasn't one of the ten commandments.
You are free to believe whatever you wish, but when the time comes for truth to stand above all else, your eyes may open then.
By the way, neither you nor anyone else has posted one verse showing a change of the commandment to the Pagan Sunday. At least Scott is honest enough to admit that there is no change, but he disregards God's word for other reasons which are faulty too.
My question to you is, where do you get what do you consider as truth since you "spew" unbiblical doctrines.
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Post by Protestant on Jun 18, 2004 3:32:58 GMT -5
keikikoka wrote
Exodus 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. 16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
The testimony is what is written on the stone tables, by what these verses say. The next question would be what is written on these tables. I don't believe it is the "10 commandments" because they were given in exodas 20 and in exodus 24 the Lord hadn't given the tables yet.
"12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them."
The stone tables are given in exodus 31 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
DEUTERONOMY 10:1-5. “At that time the Lord said to me, ‘Hew for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and come up to Me on the mountain and make yourself an ark of wood. And I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke; and you shall put them in the ark’. So I made an ark of acacia wood, and hewed two tablets of stone like the first, and went up to the mountain, having the two tablets in my hand. And He wrote on the tablets according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the LORD had spoken to you in the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me. Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and I put the tablets in the ark which I had made; and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me”. [/color]
The second set of Ten Commandments are made and written with the finger of God to replace the first ones that Moses had broken when the Israelites rebelled against God by worshipping the golden calf. God considered the wording of the Ten Commandments to be so important that he did not trust any one to write them down. God wrote the Ten Commandments on stone Himself. These two stone tablets were placed inside a small wooden chest known as the Ark of the Covenant. The Ten Commandments are specifically mentioned as being those that were spoken to Israel on the day of the assembly when God appeared in fire on Mt Sinai. This event and the commandments themselves are recorded in Exodus 19 and 20.
Exodus 19:16 “Then it came to pkmtyolp on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain[1] quaked greatly. 19And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice.”
Here we see God talking to the congregation of Israel on the day of the assembly from the Mountain out of the fire. It is here that God spoke to the people the Ten Commandments. The text of the Ten Commandments is recorded in Exodus 20. The first four commandments are explaining our duty to God. The last six explain our duty to our fellow man.
The Ten Commandments Exodus 20:1-17 And God spoke all these words, saying: (1) 2" “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3"You shall have no other gods before Me.
(2) 4"You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(3) 7"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (4) 8"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. **************************************************************** (5) 12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you. (6) 13"You shall not murder. (7) 14"You shall not commit adultery. (8) 15"You shall not steal. (9) 16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (10)17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."
These are the Ten Commandments that are in the New Covenant heavenly Sanctuary where Jesus is the high priest.
REVELATION 11:19 “Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.”
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