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Post by PhilipDC78 on Mar 24, 2004 18:50:22 GMT -5
If the child is born of a seed (sperm) then they have the nature of sin. I do not think that this is correct. With today's technology, a person could be created without a man's seed (i.e. cloning), and this person would still very much be able to sin. I say even Jesus could have sinned. He had the ability to sin. He went through the same temptations that we do, but he did not sin. If he did not have the ability to sin, then he would not have been fully human. |
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Post by babysis on Mar 24, 2004 18:59:18 GMT -5
How was there salvation/redemption then before Christ? This question was asked of me by someone else. Perhaps I will post the response I got when I asked the question about how people could be saved before there was Jesus. Let me dig it up, I think I saved it on my computer. |
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Post by babysis on Mar 24, 2004 19:05:19 GMT -5
I do not think that this is correct. With today's technology, a person could be created without a man's seed (i.e. cloning), and this person would still very much be able to sin. I say even Jesus could have sinned. He had the ability to sin. He went through the same temptations that we do, but he did not sin. If he did not have the ability to sin, then he would not have been fully human. My point was that we inherit sin. Because of the original sin we are all born sinners. Jesus is the exception to this. I guess I used a bad way to getting that point across. I agree with you that Jesus COULD have sinned, but did not. I saw where you were discussing this elsewhere and totally agree with this point. If He could not have sinned then He would not have really been tempted. But He is above sin and therefore could resisit the temptation. |
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Post by Nicodemus on Mar 24, 2004 19:30:55 GMT -5
babysis, if accepting Jesus as our savior is our salvation and she did that before his conception on the announcement from the angel, would that not make her saved? She was the first disciple of Jesus and followed him his whole life. Her whole life she said "Do what He says" and points to Jesus. I still can not believe that God would allow a woman stained with sin to carry His Son. Blessings, Ann A person that is saved is stained with sin and yet we carry His Son in our hearts. The point, for us, is that when we come to the Cross of Calvary where He paid it ALL, we come away from that Cross a new creature - perfect in the sight of GOD and no longer under the law's dominion. The law can not try us twice for the same offence. As early as Gen. 3:15 God promised a Deliverer [Saviour] through the seed of a woman. Daniel speaks of the "desire of women." It has been the desire of every Jewish woman (and still is) to be the mother of the Messiah. And no one would argue that every Jewish woman is sinless. The potential existed for God to choose any Jewish woman - and He chose Mary. |
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 25, 2004 7:18:52 GMT -5
Does the Catholic Church doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, mother of Jesus have a Biblical basis? The Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception, Ineffabilis Deus [1], cited only two scriptures for proof, Genesis 3:15 and Luke 1:28. I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.Genesis 3:15 Douay-RheimsThe thought was the "woman" was Mary. The "seed" was Jesus. The Serpent was the Devil. The enmity between Mary and the Devil was equal to the enmity between Jesus and the Devil. This could only be true if Mary was as pure and sinless as Jesus. However, if one looks at this verse in the context of the "conversation" God is having with the Serpent, "the woman", and Adam, it's clear that "the woman" is Eve. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.Luke 1:28 Douay-RheimsIn this verse, the thought was that the phrase "full of grace" indicated Mary has a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which could find its explanation only in the immaculate conception of Mary. However, this phrase is a mistranslation of the Greek word " kecharitomene." It actually means "one having been shown favor." The New American Bible [2] shows this ... And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.Luke 1:28 NAB Neither of the appeals to scripture of the Ineffabilis Deus stands up to study. Scott
[1] www.newadvent.org/docs/pi09id.htm[2] www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PWK.HTM |
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Post by genesda on Mar 25, 2004 7:22:07 GMT -5
Is the Immaculate Conception of Mary true? No, it isn't. [/color] |
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Post by marysia on Mar 25, 2004 10:19:41 GMT -5
Is the Immaculate Conception of Mary true? No, it isn't. [/color][/quote] gene, please correct what i think i'm reading -- you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. how do you disspell the biblical scripture about how the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and such? gene i'm just perplexed and dumbfounded. how can you not believe in Mary as the mother of Christ? |
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Post by genesda on Mar 25, 2004 10:53:22 GMT -5
gene, please correct what i think i'm reading -- you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. how do you disspell the biblical scripture about how the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and such? gene i'm just perplexed and dumbfounded. how can you not believe in Mary as the mother of Christ? You write as though you seem to not know much about Rc doctrines.
"Immaculate conception" means Mary was born without sin and conceived a child.
It does not mean "virgin birth".
[/color] |
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Post by marysia on Mar 25, 2004 11:08:54 GMT -5
You write as though you seem to not know much about Rc doctrines.
"Immaculate conception" means Mary was born without sin and conceived a child.
It does not mean "virgin birth".
[/color][/quote] just checking to see if you knew which Rcc item you were negating this time.  |
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Post by genesda on Mar 25, 2004 11:12:23 GMT -5
just checking to see if you knew which Rcc item you were negating this time. LOL! Right! [/color] |
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Post by Archangelwolf on Mar 27, 2004 3:02:37 GMT -5
Can a person be saved before Jesus? What a question!
The problem is in your statement.
Are my sins forgiven because I believed, or because Jesus died on the cross? Now, really think about this question a bit.
Are we saved by OUR OWN ACTION or by JESUS ACTION on the cross?
For us to be saved, Christ had to die on the cross. We are not saved because we believe. To say this is to say that we are saved by our own actions; since believing is an action that we must do. Our sins were forgiven 2000 years ago at Calvary, whether we believe or not.
Does this mean that we are all going to be with Jesus in His Kingdom? Regrettably, no. The key is acceptance or rejection. The act of believing does not save us. It is when we reject what God has already given us that we fall from grace.
It is utterly disgusting that people believe that Mary was saved without Christ. It contradicts everything that Christ stands for. Mary needed the grace of God as much as I did.
I refuse to believe in the Immaculate Conception unless God Himself tells me. Mary is not worthy of God's grace. Mary is saved on her acceptance of the grace of God on the cross; and nothing more. Marian theology is the equivalent of idolatry, and Mary herself is begging God to do away with it.
Arch.
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Post by Archangelwolf on Mar 27, 2004 3:22:06 GMT -5
Homeatlast,
You say that it is impossible for you to believe that God would allow someone born into sin to carry His Son. Interesting!
Did you know that Muslims and Jews find it hard to believe that God could clothe Himself in the disgusting flesh of a human being to save us? It is sacrilege. So, what is my point?
Their argument is the same as yours. How can God allow Himself to be carried within the womb of someone born into sin, much less allow Himself to be clothed in human flesh? Because He loves us that much. Do you not see? It is not about purity and perfection. God knows that we are not perfect yet. It is about love. God loved Mary, just as He loved you and I. He blessed Mary with the wonderful gift of carrying God in human flesh within her womb; not based upon her perfection or her purity, but by God's grace. It is by God's grace that Jesus was born to this evil world. It is by God's grace that He walked among us. It is by God's grace that He died for us. All of this is done in love.
Remember Genesis? When God created everything, he said it was GOOD, not PERFECT. There is a reason for this.
Think of a mother and a father with their new baby. The father puts the baby on the ground, and allows the baby to walk to its mother. The baby is focused on its mother's loving arms and caresses across the room. As the baby walks, its legs grow stronger and more mature. It is the same with God. All of creation is God's baby. God allows creation to walk. While creation is focused on the loving arms of Jesus waiting at the other end, it grows stronger and matures without even really noticing it. When we finally get to Jesus, we will be the perfection that we were meant to be.
Arch.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 28, 2004 22:07:44 GMT -5
Homeatlast, You say that it is impossible for you to believe that God would allow someone born into sin to carry His Son. Interesting! Did you know that Muslims and Jews find it hard to believe that God could clothe Himself in the disgusting flesh of a human being to save us? It is sacrilege. So, what is my point? Their argument is the same as yours. How can God allow Himself to be carried within the womb of someone born into sin, much less allow Himself to be clothed in human flesh? Because He loves us that much. Do you not see? It is not about purity and perfection. God knows that we are not perfect yet. It is about love. God loved Mary, just as He loved you and I. He blessed Mary with the wonderful gift of carrying God in human flesh within her womb; not based upon her perfection or her purity, but by God's grace. It is by God's grace that Jesus was born to this evil world. It is by God's grace that He walked among us. It is by God's grace that He died for us. All of this is done in love. Remember Genesis? When God created everything, he said it was GOOD, not PERFECT. There is a reason for this. Think of a mother and a father with their new baby. The father puts the baby on the ground, and allows the baby to walk to its mother. The baby is focused on its mother's loving arms and caresses across the room. As the baby walks, its legs grow stronger and more mature. It is the same with God. All of creation is God's baby. God allows creation to walk. While creation is focused on the loving arms of Jesus waiting at the other end, it grows stronger and matures without even really noticing it. When we finally get to Jesus, we will be the perfection that we were meant to be. Arch. Arch, So you say that God would allow his Son to be born and raised by a sinful woman? I do not think so. The angel at the Annunciation greeted Mary as Hail Mary, Full of grace! Guess she was full of God's grace after all. Idolatry? First of all, idolatry is the worship of an innanimate object. Mary was a real person. You have no concept of a catholic's feelings toward Mary to even say that. We did not say that she is God. There is only one God. Jesus is The Savior. Mary was the first disciple and every word uttered from her was pointing the way to her son, who she knew was God himself. Also, remember "Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother". From the cross, Jesus made his mother our spiritual Mother. Blessings, Ann |
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Post by keikikoka on Mar 28, 2004 22:30:42 GMT -5
His son is God. He didn't need to be raised by anyone. The point of a parent is to raise a child in the ways of the Lord. When your son is the Lord, it looks like this aspect of your Job is already finished. Mary's role, in the bible, is to bring Jesus into the world. The rest of what she did, as far as raising Jesus, is mere speculation. There is no reason to have a docrtine of immaculate conception and no evidence to support it.
Not exactly...
And this is based on what? Apparently Mary had no idea what Jesus was doing in the temple as a boy.
Luke 2:48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
From the cross, Jesus gave his mother to John. Women didn't work, Mary's son was going to die. She needed someone to support her. Jesus gave her John for support.
The bible never mentions a 'spirtual mother'
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Post by babysis on Mar 28, 2004 23:18:35 GMT -5
Just to let everyone know. I could not find what I was looking for on my computer but have e-mailed the woman who sent it to me asking if she remembered it and could send it again. I haven't heard back from her yet.
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