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Post by keikikoka on Apr 26, 2004 14:09:49 GMT -5
If a teaching is biblical, there should be scriptures to back them up. If you can't back it up with the bible, then you are making it up.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 26, 2004 20:06:15 GMT -5
Scott on 04/22: Gene, you’ve taken Ex 12:48-49 out of context. These two verses aren’t about the Law as given through Moses as a whole. These two verses are about the pkmtyolpover Feast. When the ENTIRE pkmtyolpage (Ex 12:42-50) is taken into account, the exact opposite meaning is understood from the one you gave. Only those who "sojourned" with the Israelites – those that joined the Israelites on their journey: and chose to follow God and took circumcision as an outward sign could participate in pkmtyolpover. The Covenant had not yet been made between God and the People of Israel.
genesda on 04/26: I disagree. The covenant of salvation dates to Adam. That was the only purpose for it. God was going to use the Israelites (Jews) to give the gospel to the world. They failed.
Scott on 04/26: Just what "covenant of salvation" are you refering too? And just what did Adam know about salvation? What "gospel" was the Nation of Israel to share? Please point it out in the Bible to me that the Israelites knew about the future coming of the messiah. I’m not talking about 500 years later when David was king. I’m talking about when they were chosen as a nation.
Scott on 04/23: Yes, I do believe the law pretaining to observing the pkmtyolpover is all that was intended in verse 49. The other laws that the Israelites would observe down through the centuries, had not yet been given to them.
Gene on 04/26: This is where we differ. I believe the law in it's entirety was given to Adam and it was pkmtyolped on by word of mouth. I don't believe a written language was necessary until later after man degenerated because of sin. Salvation didn't just come to the world at Sinai. The plan was formulated BEFORE this world was created and God wouldn't have held it back until Moses went up the mountain. That was the first time it was WRITTEN.
Scott on 04/26: That’s just conjecture on your part. It’s not up to you to decide what God would and wouldn’t do. What we do KNOW is what has been written down as scripture. There’s nothing in the Bible that suggests your assumption IS the truth. However there is scriptural evidence that suggests otherwise. See Deuteronomy 5:3, Nehemiah 9:14, and Galatians 3:16-18.
Scott on 04/23: To "sojourn" didn't mean to "only travel." It meant for a foreigner to join them, to remain with them and be adopted by them as an Israelite. The foreigner had to take-on the customs of the Israelites.
Gene on 04/26: I agree. They could possess the same promises as the Israelites by observing the same rules God gave the Israelites.
Scott on 04/22: I’d like a verse or two showing where God commanded the people of Israel to "spread the Covenant" as you have said.
Gene on 04/26: I don't have a verse, but the teaching is plain to understand, unless you believe salvation was only for the Israelites.
See my man Keikikoka's response immediately above this one.
Scott on 04/23: Again I ask, where is this in the scriptures? You claim your beliefs are from the Scriptures and only from the Scriptures. Where is it written? The Israelites were given the land of Canan based on the Covenant that God made with Abraham (Gen 15:18-21;17:1-14).
Gene on 04/26: Scriptural teachings are derived from the scriptures even when there is no actual quote.
Again, see my man Keikikoka's response immediately above this one.
Scott on 04/22: The Church was created by Jesus Christ, after He made the statement at the end of Matthew 16:13-18 (for the statement is in the future tense) …
Gene on 04/26: Then believers are not what the church is?
Scott on 04/26: Did I say that? No I did not. "The Church" is the assembly of those who believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and through him alone. The Jews believed in salvation through keeping the Law. They still do. They weren’t a part of "the Church."
Scott on 04/22: I’d like a verse or two where the Israelites are referenceed as a "light bearers to the world" or at least something to that effect. I’ve found the concept in the works of the SDA false prophet Ellen G. White several times (In Heavenly Places, Chapter 310, "Light Bearers on the Way to Heaven," Reflecting Christ, Chapter 305, "God's Children to be Light Bearers," The Review and Herald, July 27, 1905, "Holy and Without Blame," and Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, Chapter 2, "The Beatitudes"), but nowhere in the Scriptures.
Gene on 04/26: O.K., you've asked for scripture quotes and I don't have them, so what were the Jews chosen for if not a nation to show the world God's plan of salvation??
I gave you my response on 4/23. See below.
Scott on 04/23: They were chosen as a nation by God to show all people how "the Law" works or rather how it doesn't work. "The Law" itself didn't bring salvation. No system of rules could. Mankind's sinful nature will always look for ways around the rules. Else a man will convince himself by following a set of procedures, he is following the rules while missing the spirit of the rules all together. "The Law" pointed out sin. "The Law" was given to show that mankind can't do anything about sin own its own. The failure of the "The Law" on a nation-wide scale pointed out the need for a Savior. Israel as a nation was chosen as a backdrop to make ready for the coming of Jesus Christ.
Gene on 04/26: Didn't you just say the same thjing I've been saying but used more words to do so? What is "light" and what is a "bearer", who were they showing?
Scott on 04/26: No I didn’t say the same thing. You said they were supposed share the covenant with the world or share the gospel of salvation. I said they were to be an example of how "the Law" was was imperfect and a failure and couldn’t save people. "The Law" couldn't solve the problem of sin because it couldn't change people at heart. And the sacrifices couldn't take sin away (See Heb 10:4) By example, this pointed out the need for a savior.
Scott on 04/23: Not all of Abraham's descendents were of the nation of Israel. He was "the father of many nations" (Gen 17:4-5; Rom 4:17-18).
Before Christ came, God's people were the Jews. But when He was crucified, the distinction between Jew and non-Jew disappeared. (Heb 8:13) What made a Jew distinct? The Old Covenant: The Law of Moses. Now all who believe in salvation through Jesus are called Christians because we are all one in Christ. We are not "Israel." We don't keep the Old Convenant Laws.
Gene on 04/26: Which "Old Covenant Laws" are you referring to? The "law of Moses" was God's law given to Moses by God to give to the Israelites to give to the world. The commandments were written by God Himself, shown to be eternal, so what is the O.C.? Explain the differences? Where did Jesus change any of that?
The "Old Covenant" was that if the Israelites kept all the laws that God gave to Moses, God would make Israel His "treasured possession." They would be for Him "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (See Ex 19:5-6).
The "New Covenant" is not like the Old Covenant (See Heb 8:9) which the Jews broke time and time again. In the "New Covenant" laws aren’t the ones written on stone (2 Cor 3:6-7). They are written on the heart (See Heb 8:10) The Holy Spirit will teach and guide believers, not men (See Heb 8:11). The Lord will forgive believers of their sins and forget them (See Heb 8:12).
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Post by genesda on Apr 27, 2004 5:02:56 GMT -5
[quote author=TarueBeliever
The "New Covenant" is not like the Old Covenant (See Heb 8:9) which the Jews broke time and time again. In the "New Covenant" laws aren’t the ones written on stone (2 Cor 3:6-7). They are written on the heart (See Heb 8:10) The Holy Spirit will teach and guide believers, not men (See Heb 8:11). The Lord will forgive believers of their sins and forget them (See Heb 8:12).[/b][/color]
Sorry Scott, for all of your words on the subject of salvation and the covenants, you've failed to understand that all of it was to point to the coming Savior. You wish to separate things as though they are separate issues, but they are one issue with God showing man the way to salvation. For instance, you say the N.C. is God's law written on the heart instead of stone. That's foolish because David understood that the law was to be written on the heart and he asked God to do that for him. You also wish to make the N.C. some kind of mystical thing where the Holy Spirit tells each individual right from wrong. I have some news for you. The Holy spirit inspired ALL scripture and the holy spirit is NEVER going to instruct anyone of anything different from what God has already determined is His eternal truth. The laws written on stone are what's now written in the heart and if you want to make that out to be different, then you aren't following the holy Spirit, but instead your following Cain's sacrifice. When was the last time you sinned? Which commandment from God's tablets covered that sin? I've noticed some things you've posted were very informative, but you just don't seem to be able to put it together. You refuse to recognize that the plan of salvation is for all mankind, not just the Israelites. You wish to deny the commandments are still in effect. You seem to want to have a set of unwritten laws, that only apply to you as the "Holy spirit" sees fit to inform you of as an individual. Well, the holy spirit doesn't have some laws for you and some for me and still others for other people. God has given man His law, first written on stone and now written on the heart. It's the same law scott. God is not fickle and He said He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He changes not. The bible is to be understood as ONE event, the story of the salvation of man after the fall. The only law that was to expire was the sacrificial law.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Apr 27, 2004 9:33:22 GMT -5
Thanks for your opinion Gene. There's no point in arguing with you.
Scott
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Post by genesda on Apr 27, 2004 10:23:44 GMT -5
Thanks for your opinion Gene. There's no point in arguing with you.
ScottYou're welcome, but truth is truth. You say God's law is written on the heart, but what is that law? You seem to believe it is undefined and it's a "feeling" or something.
The next time you sin, ask which commandment that sin falls under, and you'll have your answer to my "opinion".
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Post by keikikoka on Apr 27, 2004 15:14:22 GMT -5
Gods Law is the Law of Love. Love God and Love your neighbor. All sin falls under this catagory.
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Post by FaithOfAMustardSeed on Apr 27, 2004 18:41:21 GMT -5
Let us get back to the ORIGINAL QUESTION. The Catholic Church doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" -- Is it Biblical?
The Catholic Church doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" was defined in the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception on December 8, 1854. This document, also known as "Ineffabilis Deus" from the first two words of the document, "God ineffable," in Latin "explains" why the Catholic Church holds to the belief that Mary, mother of Jesus, was herself conceived without being stained by sin. The explanation appeals to many "sources for proof:"- Liturgical argument -- the Church has been celebrating the Feast of the Immaculate Conception for a long time.
- Ordinary Teaching of the Roman Church -- the one true Church has zealous defended this teaching.
- Veneration of the Immaculate -- monasteries, hospitals, altars, and churches have been named in honor of the "Immaculate Conception"
- The Roman Doctrine -- Previous popes re-enforced the doctrine.
- Papal Sanctions -- books, papers, etc. that questioned the doctrine were prohibited by previous popes.
- Testimonies of the Catholic World -- Religious orders and schools have taught the doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception."
- The Council of Trent -- Explicitly excluded Mary from the doctrine of Original Sin
- Testimonies of Tradition -- the doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" must have been taught by the early Church Fathers because the Catholic Church "never changes anything, never diminishes anything, never adds anything to them."
- Interpreters of the Sacred Scripture -- The Church Fathers compared Mary’s purity to great and wondrous things in the Bible. They also thought Genesis 3:15 referred to Mary.
- The Annunciation -- In Luke 1:28, God through the Angel declares Mary to be "full of grace."
- Mary Compared with Eve -- Eve was a virgin when she disobeyed God and let sin into the world. On the other hand, Mary was a virgin when she obeyed God and " by divinely given power she utterly destroyed the force and dominion of the evil one."
- Biblical Figures -- the Church Fathers called Mary by wonderful figurative, biblical sounding names.
- Explicit Affirmation of a Supereminent Sanctity -- Some Church Fathers explicitly proclaimed Mary’s "Immaculate Conception"
Only one scriptural reference is actually cited in the "Ineffabilis Deus" concerning Mary's sinlessness -- Luke 1:28. The usual claim is made that the common Greek word "kecharitômenê" meant "Full of Grace." This is NOT TRUE. The Greek word "kecharitômenê" is parsed (divided into prefix-root-suffix) as "ke-charito-omenê." A word with a reduplicated prefix of "ke-" and a suffix of "-omenê" is a verb of Greek perfect tense (English past-perfect), pkmtyolpive or middle voice, and participle in function (the verb acts like a noun). The noun is feminine in gender and singular in number. The root word is "charito-" meaning "to show grace." Because you can’t show grace to yourself, the voice must be pkmtyolpive instead of middle. The word must be translated "She having been shown grace."
The one scriptural claim about the Immaculate Conception is based on an erroneous translation. The Immaculate Conception is not Biblical.
FOAMS
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Post by genesda on Apr 28, 2004 5:06:56 GMT -5
Gods Law is the Law of Love. Love God and Love your neighbor. All sin falls under this catagory. I agree, and this "law of love" was an O.T. law as well. In John 14:15, Jesus said "if you love Me, keep My commandments. Simply put:
If you love Me, you will not steal, lie, murder, have no other gods before Me, will not take My name in vain, make no idols, keep the sabbath day holy, honor your father and mother, covet not, commit adultry.
You see how love will make one keep the TEN commandments?
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Post by genesda on Apr 28, 2004 5:09:05 GMT -5
Let us get back to the ORIGINAL QUESTION. The Catholic Church doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" -- Is it Biblical?
The Catholic Church doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" was defined in the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception on December 8, 1854. This document, also known as "Ineffabilis Deus" from the first two words of the document, "God ineffable," in Latin "explains" why the Catholic Church holds to the belief that Mary, mother of Jesus, was herself conceived without being stained by sin. The explanation appeals to many "sources for proof:"- Liturgical argument -- the Church has been celebrating the Feast of the Immaculate Conception for a long time.
- Ordinary Teaching of the Roman Church -- the one true Church has zealous defended this teaching.
- Veneration of the Immaculate -- monasteries, hospitals, altars, and churches have been named in honor of the "Immaculate Conception"
- The Roman Doctrine -- Previous popes re-enforced the doctrine.
- Papal Sanctions -- books, papers, etc. that questioned the doctrine were prohibited by previous popes.
- Testimonies of the Catholic World -- Religious orders and schools have taught the doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception."
- The Council of Trent -- Explicitly excluded Mary from the doctrine of Original Sin
- Testimonies of Tradition -- the doctrine of Mary's "Immaculate Conception" must have been taught by the early Church Fathers because the Catholic Church "never changes anything, never diminishes anything, never adds anything to them."
- Interpreters of the Sacred Scripture -- The Church Fathers compared Mary’s purity to great and wondrous things in the Bible. They also thought Genesis 3:15 referred to Mary.
- The Annunciation -- In Luke 1:28, God through the Angel declares Mary to be "full of grace."
- Mary Compared with Eve -- Eve was a virgin when she disobeyed God and let sin into the world. On the other hand, Mary was a virgin when she obeyed God and " by divinely given power she utterly destroyed the force and dominion of the evil one."
- Biblical Figures -- the Church Fathers called Mary by wonderful figurative, biblical sounding names.
- Explicit Affirmation of a Supereminent Sanctity -- Some Church Fathers explicitly proclaimed Mary’s "Immaculate Conception"
Only one scriptural reference is actually cited in the "Ineffabilis Deus" concerning Mary's sinlessness -- Luke 1:28. The usual claim is made that the common Greek word "kecharitômenê" meant "Full of Grace." This is NOT TRUE. The Greek word "kecharitômenê" is parsed (divided into prefix-root-suffix) as "ke-charito-omenê." A word with a reduplicated prefix of "ke-" and a suffix of "-omenê" is a verb of Greek perfect tense (English past-perfect), pkmtyolpive or middle voice, and participle in function (the verb acts like a noun). The noun is feminine in gender and singular in number. The root word is "charito-" meaning "to show grace." Because you can’t show grace to yourself, the voice must be pkmtyolpive instead of middle. The word must be translated "She having been shown grace."
The one scriptural claim about the Immaculate Conception is based on an erroneous translation. The Immaculate Conception is not Biblical.
FOAMSAs is almost everything taught in the Rcc. [/color]
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Post by RealistState on May 3, 2004 20:07:26 GMT -5
[/b][/color] [/quote]
Scott, as our resident Greek expert (no reflection on FOAMS knowledge), is this accurate translation? I know we discussed the translation of this before, and I thought you had come to a slightly different conclusion.
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Post by genesda on May 4, 2004 4:56:25 GMT -5
Gods Law is the Law of Love. Love God and Love your neighbor. All sin falls under this catagory. Yes, and on these two principles hangs ALL of the law and the prophets. These two commandments don't DISCOUNT any laws or commandments. [/color]
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