|
Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 8:32:29 GMT -5
No, not really. I don't see that as saving, but as creating without sin, not needing saved. however since God created Mary, then He saved her from the moment of conception. since we are all His children, he created us all.
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 8:33:38 GMT -5
Also, Christ is God in Human form. He is fully man and fully God. So I could say I am saved by God or I could say I'm saved by Christ. Both would be true and acceptable. God is three in one. To say we are saved by one is to say we are saved by the other. God died on the cross for us. God's name was Jesus and He is the Christ. It's all the same. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me. it's similar to the conversations waaaaaaaaaay back about the term Mary Mother of God.
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 8:34:44 GMT -5
This is part of the issue that I have with Catholicism. My Bible tells me that Mary was not sinless, may i ask where in the bible is specifically says she WAS born with sin? thanks
|
|
|
Post by Nicodemus on Mar 24, 2004 8:44:08 GMT -5
may i ask where in the bible is specifically says she WAS born with sin? thanks "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom. 3:10) "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 9:29:39 GMT -5
"As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom. 3:10) "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) that's an interesting thought. i always assumed that Romans was written about life with and after Christ, not necessarily before. have to read it again this weekend. so then, i assume you do not believe that adam and eve were created without sin?
|
|
|
Post by Nicodemus on Mar 24, 2004 12:26:07 GMT -5
that's an interesting thought. i always assumed that Romans was written about life with and after Christ, not necessarily before. have to read it again this weekend. so then, i assume you do not believe that adam and eve were created without sin? Adam and Eve were created without sin - and fell, hence all of their posterity are "born" with the sin nature. Note the word "born" - since the two of them were not born they can rightly be considered as free of the curse. The key verses for this is found in Romans 5:17-18, but really from verse 8 on. "For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." The offence came from Adam - the gift of righteousness comes by Jesus. Righteousness is the act whereby God is able to proclaim all guiltless and free from the law through the obedience of His Son. Romans was written as a most thorough examination of the Gospel (1:16).
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Mar 24, 2004 13:47:37 GMT -5
Adam and Eve were created without sin - and fell, hence all of their posterity are "born" with the sin nature. Note the word "born" - since the two of them were not born they can rightly be considered as free of the curse. The key verses for this is found in Romans 5:17-18, but really from verse 8 on. "For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." The offence came from Adam - the gift of righteousness comes by Jesus. Righteousness is the act whereby God is able to proclaim all guiltless and free from the law through the obedience of His Son. Romans was written as a most thorough examination of the Gospel (1:16). which gospel 1:16. i can repect what you say but it still doesn't convince me that God could NOT have spared Mary. I'm not saying she was born without the sin nature but graced without sin and through the continual grace of God did not sin. i believe whole heartedly that God can do anything so i don't think it's farfetched. i just can not convieve how God would choose a sin-filled person to carry His child, to be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. to nurture and nurse, ween and teach His Child. please know i'm not trying to be argumentative when i question repeatedly. i'm just curious as to others thoughts and ideas. i may not agree with them but when given in earnestness and compkmtyolpion, i TRY very hard to at least respect them!
|
|
|
Post by babysis on Mar 24, 2004 14:01:37 GMT -5
however since God created Mary, then He saved her from the moment of conception. since we are all His children, he created us all. But there was no salvation until Christ.
|
|
|
Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 14:17:58 GMT -5
But there was no salvation until Christ. babysis, if accepting Jesus as our savior is our salvation and she did that before his conception on the announcement from the angel, would that not make her saved? She was the first disciple of Jesus and followed him his whole life. Her whole life she said "Do what He says" and points to Jesus. I still can not believe that God would allow a woman stained with sin to carry His Son. Blessings, Ann
|
|
|
Post by babysis on Mar 24, 2004 15:54:16 GMT -5
babysis, if accepting Jesus as our savior is our salvation and she did that before his conception on the announcement from the angel, would that not make her saved? She was the first disciple of Jesus and followed him his whole life. Her whole life she said "Do what He says" and points to Jesus. I still can not believe that God would allow a woman stained with sin to carry His Son. Blessings, Ann That still is bringing Jesus into the equation, not like what you said before that had Mary saved before Jesus was even thought of. That's what confused me. I totally think that Mary accepted Jesus as her Savior before He died on the cross. Of course it was not until after His blood was spilled that our sins were washed, but that does not mean that she could not have accepted Him as her Savior. I understand that you don't think Jesus would be carried in the womb of a sinful woman and I respect that, but I disagree. I don't think sin "rubs off" onto the baby. If the child is born of a seed (sperm) then they have the nature of sin. Jesus was not born of the seed and therefore was not born a sinful person. And even if sin could "rub off" onto an unborn child I believe God, knowing He only had sinful people to choose from, would protect His Son from any sin that would "rub off" because Jesus had to be perfect. But like I said, I don't think sin "rubs off" so that isn't necessary. I just don't understand where the Catholic view comes from. I respect it and don't think it's a matter of one's salvation and I'm sure I have some views that you may not understand either. So it's not important. I was just trying, again, to understand. Guess I still don't.
|
|
|
Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 24, 2004 16:19:22 GMT -5
That still is bringing Jesus into the equation, not like what you said before that had Mary saved before Jesus was even thought of. That's what confused me. I totally think that Mary accepted Jesus as her Savior before He died on the cross. Of course it was not until after His blood was spilled that our sins were washed, but that does not mean that she could not have accepted Him as her Savior. I understand that you don't think Jesus would be carried in the womb of a sinful woman and I respect that, but I disagree. I don't think sin "rubs off" onto the baby. If the child is born of a seed (sperm) then they have the nature of sin. Jesus was not born of the seed and therefore was not born a sinful person. And even if sin could "rub off" onto an unborn child I believe God, knowing He only had sinful people to choose from, would protect His Son from any sin that would "rub off" because Jesus had to be perfect. But like I said, I don't think sin "rubs off" so that isn't necessary. I just don't understand where the Catholic view comes from. I respect it and don't think it's a matter of one's salvation and I'm sure I have some views that you may not understand either. So it's not important. I was just trying, again, to understand. Guess I still don't. babysis, I appreciate your respect for our beliefs. I really do. I do not think that sin will rub off on the baby either. I just think about when God told the jews how to build the Ark of the Covenant. How it had to done according to his specifications and be very special. Mary was the Ark of the Covenant of the Word made flesh. That makes her very special to us. Blessings, Ann
|
|
|
Post by babysis on Mar 24, 2004 16:26:25 GMT -5
babysis, I appreciate your respect for our beliefs. I really do. I do not think that sin will rub off on the baby either. I just think about when God told the jews how to build the Ark of the Covenant. How it had to done according to his specifications and be very special. Mary was the Ark of the Covenant of the Word made flesh. That makes her very special to us. Blessings, Ann I agree, she is a very special lady. I mean, can you imagine being the one to carry the Savior for 9 months??? But I don't think that requires her to be sinless. Perhaps God did have certain specifications He wanted in the carrier of The Savior and Mary fit those. But they could be things like obedient, kept the laws to the best of her ability, etc. She wasn't sinless, but maybe she was one of the few that were "up there" on the really good scale. She was the best pick of all the choices so to say. Still a fallen creature, but the best of the women God had to choose from at the time. As for respect, I try very hard to do so with my family. Citizen is a very close, dear sister of mine and I don't think I could be disrespectful to her, or any other brother or sister's beliefs. I may not agree with them, but you know what? Who cares? ;D We all should still love each other. Maybe we should do a Purpose Driven Life study here like we are at Snotty's board. I think they chapters we are on would be REALLY helpful to anyone willing to read the book. ;D
|
|
|
Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 24, 2004 18:14:15 GMT -5
Original Sin doesn't come from the DNA of the male parent!
Jesus being born without sin had nothing to do with his mother being a virgin.
Jesus being born of a virgin was just one of many signs so that people would know he was the son of God. It wasn't a necessary condition for him to be born sinless.
Scott
|
|
|
Post by PhilipDC78 on Mar 24, 2004 18:43:56 GMT -5
which gospel 1:16. i can repect what you say but it still doesn't convince me that God could NOT have spared Mary. I'm not saying she was born without the sin nature but graced without sin and through the continual grace of God did not sin. i believe whole heartedly that God can do anything so i don't think it's farfetched. i just can not convieve how God would choose a sin-filled person to carry His child, to be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. to nurture and nurse, ween and teach His Child. please know i'm not trying to be argumentative when i question repeatedly. i'm just curious as to others thoughts and ideas. i may not agree with them but when given in earnestness and compkmtyolpion, i TRY very hard to at least respect them! And that there is the miracle of Christ's birth. Remember, sin does not equal the person. A person is not sin. Sin is something that a person does. Therefore Christ being born of a sinful vessel would not have somehow been "contaminated" by the sin, because Mary was not sin. Mary was simply a human who did sin, who was blessed by being chosen by God to bear His son.
|
|
|
Post by PhilipDC78 on Mar 24, 2004 18:44:33 GMT -5
But there was no salvation until Christ. How was there salvation/redemption then before Christ?
|
|