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Post by genesda on Feb 4, 2004 6:16:06 GMT -5
The Bible does contain all we need for salvation, God's complete message in Christ. But that is a minimalist view. There is more going on above and beyond the minimal need of salvation. Really? What else does man need besides salvation?[/color]
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Post by Pietro on Feb 5, 2004 9:29:32 GMT -5
Really? What else does man need besides salvation? [/color][/quote] It is statement such as this that make me wonder if you know God personally at all. Yes, you have faith in God and you have faith in his word coming to us through scripture. You also have faith that if you keep his commandments you will be saved. That is great! But have you met Christ personally? If you did you would know that there is a peace and joy availible to us here, now and not just because we believe that we will be with him in heaven in some future time. His spirit is actually alive withn us guiding us and giving us strength in the most trying of times. "What does man need besides salvation?" you ask. We need Christ's companionship here and now. We need to feel his transcendent presence here and now. I know you don't quite get what I'm talking about when I speak of transcendent presence. We need more than the indirect encounter through scripture. We need the indwelling spirit here and now that touches our hearts and transforms us in this life, in this world. Salvation is the minimum. It is just the open door to an infinite reality, an infinite journey into God. Meeting Christ personally takes us far beyond salvation. It gives us abundant life here and now.
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Post by Pietro on Feb 5, 2004 9:37:28 GMT -5
I agree with you LJ. Salvation is simple. Repent, ask God to forgive our sin, turn from sin and sin no more. LOL, now, how is this accomplished? How is sin identified? When pkmtyolw the last time you sinned and how did you know you sinned? Could it be ( in the manner of 'church lady')
..............the law!!!! [/color][/quote] The entire law or just the ten commandments?
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Post by LauraJean on Feb 5, 2004 9:40:35 GMT -5
Really? What else does man need besides salvation? [/color][/quote] Ooh, ooh, I know this one! Pick me! Pick me!! MT 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
MT 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
MT 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
MT 25:40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
MT 25:44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
MT 25:45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." JAS 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
JAS 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
JAS 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. COL 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compkmtyolpion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
COL 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
COL 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
COL 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
COL 3:20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
COL 3:21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.
COL 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.
COL 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
COL 4:2 Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful. 3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. 4 Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should. 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. 1PE 3:13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. " Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. HEB 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.Keep in mind that I am not advocating salvation by works, but rather, these instructions are the response to salvation. And we need these. Have a blessed day! LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Feb 5, 2004 9:54:44 GMT -5
But doesn't God also use experiences, education, cultures and whatever else to speak to us?. I think He answers your question here: (slightly out of context but applicable) RO 1:19 ...what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.Even to unbelievers, God makes Himself known. Peace, LJ
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Post by genesda on Feb 5, 2004 11:19:15 GMT -5
Really? What else does man need besides salvation? It is statement such as this that make me wonder if you know God personally at all. Yes, you have faith in God and you have faith in his word coming to us through scripture. You also have faith that if you keep his commandments you will be saved. That is great! But have you met Christ personally? If you did you would know that there is a peace and joy availible to us here, now and not just because we believe that we will be with him in heaven in some future time. His spirit is actually alive withn us guiding us and giving us strength in the most trying of times. "What does man need besides salvation?" you ask. We need Christ's companionship here and now. We need to feel his transcendent presence here and now. I know you don't quite get what I'm talking about when I speak of transcendent presence. We need more than the indirect encounter through scripture. We need the indwelling spirit here and now that touches our hearts and transforms us in this life, in this world. Salvation is the minimum. It is just the open door to an infinite reality, an infinite journey into God. Meeting Christ personally takes us far beyond salvation. It gives us abundant life here and now. You obviously didn't understand what my comment meant. Well, all I can say is that journey will never start if one depends on Mary to kick it off. You may feel good about yourself, but that's not the real journey. No one needs more than the scriptures to learn about Jesus and to meet Him through that knowledge He gave us about Himself. Anything else is a counterfiet.
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Post by genesda on Feb 5, 2004 11:21:14 GMT -5
Ooh, ooh, I know this one! Pick me! Pick me!! MT 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
MT 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
MT 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
MT 25:40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
MT 25:44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
MT 25:45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." JAS 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
JAS 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
JAS 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. COL 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compkmtyolpion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
COL 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
COL 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
COL 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
COL 3:20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
COL 3:21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.
COL 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.
COL 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
COL 4:2 Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful. 3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. 4 Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should. 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. 1PE 3:13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. " Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. HEB 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.Keep in mind that I am not advocating salvation by works, but rather, these instructions are the response to salvation. And we need these. Have a blessed day! LJ I was afraid your quotes would never end. However, I agree with what you posted. Thanks.[/color]
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Post by k8reader on Feb 6, 2004 7:16:51 GMT -5
Sorry but it really gets me ticked off when people insist on a literal and legalistic interpretation of the Bible. It is a wonderful piece of literature filled with God's spirit. It is God's Word to us. But, it also comes to us through one culture's experience of God, the Jewish culture. It is their story told from their perspective by their people. Even the New Testament. It has poetry, history, legal code, exhortation, allegory, and yes, it also has myth. Failure to distinguish these different genres is just plain simplistic and lazy minded. I understand that some people don't have the time or wherewithall to go beyond a literal interpretation of the whole thing, fine. Just don't force it on me as a requirement for salvation, or Christianity or whatever. God's Word is not limited to or completely contained in the Bible. Hi Pietro, I was concerned because you seem upset. If you feel that some believers have not had " the time or wherewithall to go beyond a literal interpretation", then why not be patient with them? Why do you feel that literal beliefs are being "force"ed on you "as a requirement for salvation, or Christianity"? k8
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Post by Pietro on Feb 7, 2004 10:14:11 GMT -5
Hi Pietro, I was concerned because you seem upset. If you feel that some believers have not had " the time or wherewithall to go beyond a literal interpretation", then why not be patient with them? Why do you feel that literal beliefs are being "force"ed on you "as a requirement for salvation, or Christianity"? k8 Those sentiments are evident on this forum. But I do not mean to insult those who hold a literal interpretation. I simply hope that a less fundamentalistic interpretation can be tolerated and even welcomed. Thank you for asking.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Feb 8, 2004 17:30:15 GMT -5
Sorry but it really gets me ticked off when people insist on a literal and legalistic interpretation of the Bible. It is a wonderful piece of literature filled with God's spirit. It is God's Word to us. But, it also comes to us through one culture's experience of God, the Jewish culture. It is their story told from their perspective by their people. Even the New Testament. It has poetry, history, legal code, exhortation, allegory, and yes, it also has myth. Failure to distinguish these different genres is just plain simplistic and lazy minded. I understand that some people don't have the time or wherewithall to go beyond a literal interpretation of the whole thing, fine. Just don't force it on me as a requirement for salvation, or Christianity or whatever. God's Word is not limited to or completely contained in the Bible. Just for funzzies, let's throw out the entire Bible ... Now what can we do to find out about salvation?(remember, if it's based on the Bible, we have to throw it out ...) I'll sit here and wait for your answer ... Scott PS ask my wife ... I really do sit in front of this PC all day long.
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Post by Pietro on Feb 9, 2004 10:02:17 GMT -5
Just for funzzies, let's throw out the entire Bible ... Now what can we do to find out about salvation?(remember, if it's based on the Bible, we have to throw it out ...) I'll sit here and wait for your answer ... Scott PS ask my wife ... I really do sit in front of this PC all day long. My beef is with the exclusively literal interpretation of scripture and treating the Book as if it fell down from heaven the minute God wrote it. But I'm up for funzies as well. Suppose the Bible never existed. Perhaps then we would appreciate oral tradition as well as the grains of truth present in other scripures, the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Koran, Tao te Ching, etc. And hopefully we would apporach them all with more caution, sobriety and some degree of skepticism, gleaning from them all that resonates most deeply in our hearts where the Spirit of God still dwells.
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Post by heathen76 on Feb 9, 2004 10:41:40 GMT -5
My beef is with the exclusively literal interpretation of scripture and treating the Book as if it fell down from heaven the minute God wrote it. But I'm up for funzies as well. Suppose the Bible never existed. Perhaps then we would appreciate oral tradition as well as the grains of truth present in other scripures, the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Koran, Tao te Ching, etc. And hopefully we would apporach them all with more caution, sobriety and some degree of skepticism, gleaning from them all that resonates most deeply in our hearts where the Spirit of God still dwells. Well said, Pietro.
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Post by I2AM4GOD on Mar 26, 2004 12:23:51 GMT -5
Pietro, Do you regard the Bible as the Spirit breathed Word of God or not? And if you do, do you also feel the same way about the other so-called holy books? Andy.
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Post by Pietro on Mar 26, 2004 16:51:18 GMT -5
Pietro, Do you regard the Bible as the Spirit breathed Word of God or not? And if you do, do you also feel the same way about the other so-called holy books? Andy. Inspired, yes. That does not mean all Literal. One must respect literary genres and intentions of the authors. Do me a favor. Go to a library and find a commentary on scripture or introduction to the Old or New Testament. Your appraoch to the Bible seems to require an uncritical literal acceptance of everything as written. We all do not see it that way and neither do any credible scholars at the major universities or schools of theology. It is actually a diservice to the Bible, an understatement of its depth. As for other sacred scriptures of other religions, they give us a glimps of God but do not have the fullness of teh Bible, especially in speaking of the personhood of God, God's love for us and faithfullness to us. They do not narrate for us the incarnation or paschal mystery.
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Post by Cohdra on Mar 29, 2004 12:28:44 GMT -5
Just for funzzies, let's throw out the entire Bible ... Now what can we do to find out about salvation?(remember, if it's based on the Bible, we have to throw it out ...) I'll sit here and wait for your answer ... Scott PS ask my wife ... I really do sit in front of this PC all day long. Umm...the early Christians (most were illiterate) didn't have the Bible as we know it. They were converted via witnessing and miracles, etc Christ does not need a book to save people. You are not saved by believing the Bible, your saved by believing in Christ; a huge distinction. You need to be careful where you place your faith. God bless
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