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Post by genesda on Aug 12, 2003 8:52:04 GMT -5
Heart4Him Usually those who believe in 'soul sleep' also believe in its necessary corollary which is annihilation of the wicked. That they are never resurrected, and do not face punishment in the lake of fire. They just cease to exist. The above pkmtyolpage in John disputes that.
You're mistaken. The wicked will be resurrected AFTER the 1000 years as Revelation clearly says. Then they will be engulfed in the lake of fire and consumed so the universe can be purified of sin once again.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 12, 2003 9:40:40 GMT -5
I am not disagreeing with you or what you wrote. I just think you want these words to apply now and in reality they apply to the saved after the resurrection. No one has a glorified body at this time except a select few that were taken as the bible tells us. Paul and Peter both admit that they will not get their rewards (eternal life) until Jesus returns. We know that God loved David and that he will have eternal life, but look at what was said about David in Acts. Acts clearly says that David DID NOT ASCEND TO HEAVEN and that he was still in his tomb. That was hundreds of years before this statement was issued.
No one seems to want to answer the question of why there will be a resurrection if people are already in heaven at the time of death. [/color][/quote] David did not ascend with his body as Jesus did. There will be a resurrection of the body so that people will have access to both heaven and earth just as Jesus did. "Never" means "Not Ever".
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Post by Protestant on Aug 12, 2003 16:29:46 GMT -5
So you believe that only those who accept Christ have an immortal soul and that all others have a mortal soul and are unconscious in death.
I think that it is you who is ignoring other scripture while reading a false interpretation into others.
Jesus is saying that the spirit that was to be poured out on the day of pentecost was like living water in the hearts of the people. There is no mention of dead people here. What are you going on about?
John 11:23-26 “ 23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?27She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
The unbiblical pagan Greek idea that man has an immortal soul and is conscious in death is supposed to apply to all men. That is, all men, saved and unsaved, are said to have an immortal soul not just Christians. But Jesus in the above verses is saying that only those who believe in Him are the ones who will not die. Believers will not die but the unbelievers will die. Clearly He is not teaching the Greek idea that all men have an immortal soul. He is teaching about the resurrection. He then proves what He says by resurrecting Lazarus from his grave.
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die he shall live”
He may die in this life but he will live again because Jesus will resurrect him from his grave at the last day. Only those Christians who are alive to see Jesus return at the last day are the ones who will not die.
“And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” In verse 25 we are told that believing Christians may die. Now in verse 26 we are told that believing Christians will never die. Is this a contradiction? Not if we understand that ‘never die’ here refers to the second death that no true Christian will experience. To say that Jesus is teaching ‘immortal-soulism’ here is to say that He taught the same lie that satan taught in the garden of Eden. When he lied to Eve by saying “you will not surely die”. (Genesis 3:4)
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Post by Deborah4God on Aug 12, 2003 17:08:46 GMT -5
No Such Thing As Soul Sleep
Ecclesiastes 12 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 13, 2003 7:54:41 GMT -5
The problem with soul sleep is that it slams the dignity of God's spirit. treats it as an impersonal force of nature. Soul Sleep theory is that this force gives life to the flesh just as electricity might give energy to a robot. At death the force is withdrawn and the body with its thoughts, identity, mind, love, and all that it is capable of remembering disintegrate. The spirit that returns to God has no personal identity, memory, intelligence, will, or love. It is just an impersonal force. That is the implication of soul sleep.
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Post by Baptist Bible Believer on Aug 13, 2003 8:11:09 GMT -5
The problem with soul sleep is that it slams the dignity of God's spirit. treats it as an impersonal force of nature. Soul Sleep theory is that this force gives life to the flesh just as electricity might give energy to a robot. At death the force is withdrawn and the body with its thoughts, identity, mind, love, and all that it is capable of remembering disintegrate. The spirit that returns to God has no personal identity, memory, intelligence, will, or love. It is just an impersonal force. That is the implication of soul sleep. Not to mention that people have to cut out about a dozen or more Bible verses in order to prove their position, most notably: "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the LORD." or Philiippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; which is far better. Nope, these two verses are not about rotting in the ground waiting to be woked up.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 13, 2003 8:12:14 GMT -5
So you believe that only those who accept Christ have an immortal soul and that all others have a mortal soul and are unconscious in death. That is not what the Church teaches but I tend to lean that way. I'm going on about the fact that the people to whom the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost died. Was the living water temporary? I believe the church teaches that the second death is a metaphor for eternal aspodfija. He is not addressing the issue of those who do not beleive in him. Jesus will resurrect the body on the last day which will give us the fullness of our human existence. But what about the first death that you claim is both death of body and soul, a death of all that is a person, a true death of all that one is? That is what orthodoxy claims Jesus is talking about. Not seeing total destruction at physical death. She dies in the flesh. What do you know of her eternal destiny?
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Post by Protestant on Aug 13, 2003 17:49:10 GMT -5
Garbage.
you are wrong again Baptist Church Believer.
2 Corinthians 5:1-9
(1) Absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinth 5:1-9 “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed [Physical death], we have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens [An immortal body]. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven [An immortal body]. If indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked [Dead without a body]. For we who are in this tent [Mortal body] groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed [Dead without a body] , but further clothed, [with an immortal body] that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing [Transformation from mortal flesh to immortal flesh] is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the [mortal] body we are absent from the Lord [Living here on earth]. For we walk by faith [Believing what God tells us], not by sight. We are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the [mortal] body and to be present with the Lord [In heaven, not unclothed without a body but clothed with an immortal body].”
There is nothing in this pkmtyolpage that teaches that man is conscious in death or has life as a disembodied spirit. To the contrary, Paul wants to be in heaven with an immortal body.
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Post by genesda on Aug 19, 2003 9:53:05 GMT -5
[quote author=Deborah4God
No Such Thing As Soul Sleep
Ecclesiastes 12 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. [/quote]
Why don't you define "spirit"? Please show the biblical explanation of what a "spirit" is?[/color]
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Post by genesda on Aug 19, 2003 9:55:36 GMT -5
The problem with soul sleep is that it slams the dignity of God's spirit. treats it as an impersonal force of nature. Soul Sleep theory is that this force gives life to the flesh just as electricity might give energy to a robot. At death the force is withdrawn and the body with its thoughts, identity, mind, love, and all that it is capable of remembering disintegrate. The spirit that returns to God has no personal identity, memory, intelligence, will, or love. It is just an impersonal force. That is the implication of soul sleep. You've just given the correct biblical explanation of what God did for man at his creation and what happens to him in death. So, what's your problem with this?
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Post by genesda on Aug 19, 2003 10:08:40 GMT -5
Not to mention that people have to cut out about a dozen or more Bible verses in order to prove their position, most notably: "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the LORD." or Philiippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; which is far better. Nope, these two verses are not about rotting in the ground waiting to be woked up. What you've shown here is that you really don't understand what Paul is saying, and it is YOU who is dismissing plain simple to understand verses on the subject of death in order to hold onto something that you have misunderstood.
You call yourself "bible believer" yet you've not shown the "bible teaching" of "Sunday sacredness" or "the immortal soul". Why not?
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Post by genesda on Aug 19, 2003 10:13:57 GMT -5
[quote author=Pietro I believe the church teaches that the second death is a metaphor for eternal aspodfija.
I believe the church teaches that the second death is a metaphor for eternal aspodfija.
"Metaphor"? Why? Is it because the second death which means ( "no life") doesn't fit in with what you wish to believe? The second death is a real final state for the wicked. Death doesn't mean "life someplace else". In death, there is no life anywhere.[/color]
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Post by Cohdra on Sept 12, 2003 18:26:27 GMT -5
Good thread Bump
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Post by genesda on Sept 25, 2003 10:26:30 GMT -5
[quote author=genesda
No Such Thing As Soul Sleep
Ecclesiastes 12 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. [/quote]
Why don't you define "spirit"? Please show the biblical explanation of what a "spirit" is?
Still waiting for an answer.[/color]
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Post by RealistState on Sept 26, 2003 16:39:55 GMT -5
Why don't you define "spirit"? Please show the biblical explanation of what a "spirit" is?
Still waiting for an answer. [/color] [/quote] Let's see, in the KJV Bible, "spirit" is mentioned 582 times in 523 verses. Since the Bible does not have a glossary of terms, wher would you like to start? Shall we start with the first one? Genesis 1:2- And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. What do you think spirit means to you in conetxt of this verse? Is spirit a separate entity of God? If not, why not just say "And God moved upon the face of the waters." The writers were clearly stating something. What do you think?
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