|
Post by Protestant on Aug 10, 2003 1:29:24 GMT -5
Yes you are right and it was invented by Satan! The Doctrine of mans natural immortality is one of Satan's most successful deceptions. Not only has he deceived every false religion on earth for all time he has even managed to infiltrate the Jewish and Christian churches. Inspite of the fact that it is not in the hebrew or christian bibles.
Genesis 3:1-4 “ Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?’ ” And the woman said to the serpent, ‘We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said ‘You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die. Then the serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die.”
Here is recorded the first sermon on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Eve was told by God that to disobey means to suffer the penalty of death. Satan the Devil under the guise of the serpent says ‘no’, God is wrong. You can disobey God and you will not die. ie You cannot die because you are immortal. This is Satan’s first lie told on this world. However when man began to die Satan’s first lie was unmasked. So man had to be persuaded that physical death was not really death at all but simply a transition from one phase of existence to another. Satan’s next lie was to convince man that when the physical body died man actually continued to live in the form of a disembodied spirit. This second lie was necessary to sustain the first lie –“You will not surely die.”
This false doctrine was a part of the religion of the Egyptians and then the Pagan Greeks. It entered the early Christian church in the second century AD through the church fathers who learned it from the Greeks. It then became a major doctrine of the Roman Catholic church and found its way into the Protestant churches during the sixteenth century reformation. From there it has become a major doctrine in nearly every Protestant church despite the fact that it is not in the Bible.
This likeness to God's image does not mean immortality. In the same way that likeness does not mean Omniscient, Omniprestent, or Omnipotent. If we are none of those things we are not immortal either.
All these have been answered before in this thread on pages 2 and 3.
He most certainly did.
Here we have Jesus own understanding about the state of the dead. Jesus believed death to be a state of unconscious sleep.
John 11:11-14 “…Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up. Then His disciples said ‘Lord if he sleeps he will get well’ However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly ‘Lazarus is dead’.
John 11:41, 43-44 “Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, ‘Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.… Now when he had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him and let him go.”
Here we have recorded the dramatic event of the resurrection of Lazarus, a friend of Jesus who had been dead for four days. Jesus cries with a loud voice for Lazarus to come forth from the grave. Lazarus’ body and mind were both dead in the grave, not just his body. Jesus did not say ‘Lazarus come back from heaven and re-enter your body’. He did not say ‘ come back from purgatory and re-enter your body’. He did not say ‘come back from hell and re-enter your body. Jesus simply said Lazarus come forth from your grave because that is where Lazarus was, both mind and body.
John 5:28-29 “ Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Jesus is teaching about the great resurrection day when every one who has ever lived will one day get up out of their graves. It is not just the physical body that is in the grave it is the entire person mind and body. The mind and personality has to be dead in the grave for them to be able to hear the voice of the life giver from the grave
|
|
|
Post by Protestant on Aug 10, 2003 1:49:36 GMT -5
This has been answered on post 35 on page 3.
In the parable of the unjust judge Jesus used this man to illustrate how we should pray to God and not give up. Yet this Judge had a character that was the oppostite of God's character. Jesus on more than one occasion used imagery and illustrations that are the oppostite of fact to teach a spiritual truth.
|
|
|
Post by Pietro on Aug 10, 2003 2:57:43 GMT -5
I may have thrown the towel in a bit early. I have been reading the Gospels from the perspective of a soul sleeper and have found numerous problems. In fact, I got tired of listing them. The Gospel of John is particularly filled with references to never seeing death, never dying for those who are born of the spirit.
Just a few examples:
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Of course many here have a problem with taking Jesus at his words.
John 7 37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Can living waters come out of a dead person?
John 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." 52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
He said "never" not "temporarily".
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
|
|
|
Post by Protestant on Aug 10, 2003 4:29:15 GMT -5
You have overlooked a pkmtyolmive hole in your theory. If you are correct then only Christians have immortal souls and only from there conversion onwards. Jesus was promising immortality to his followers only. That means that those who reject him do not have eternal life. Never seeing death is the second death that all the wicked will go through.
There is no way that you can read that man has an immortal soul in to this. Because that doctrine says that all men have immortality regardless as to whether they accept Jesus or not. Clearly Jesus here is teaching the hebrew doctrine of "Conditionalism" not Greek "Immortal-soulism"
(1) Conditionalism: Man is a candidate for immortality but does not possess it naturally. Mans body, mind, soul, and spirit are mortal and that death is an unconscious sleep. Immortality is a gift from God given to His followers on the day of the resurrection on the condition that man has accepted the God’s covenant of salvation. The wicked that reject this condition suffer the punishment of eternal death. Fire being the method of execution.
(2) Immortal-soulism: the idea that man has an immortal soul living inside a mortal body. That man is naturally immortal apart from God and therefore man is conscious in death. God’s true followers enter paradise at death while the immortal wicked suffer for eternity in an underground pit of fire.
|
|
|
Post by Pietro on Aug 10, 2003 8:53:55 GMT -5
You have overlooked a pkmtyolmive hole in your theory. If you are correct then only Christians have immortal souls and only from there conversion onwards. Jesus was promising immortality to his followers only. That means that those who reject him do not have eternal life. Never seeing death is the second death that all the wicked will go through. There is no way that you can read that man has an immortal soul in to this. Because that doctrine says that all men have immortality regardless as to whether they accept Jesus or not. Clearly Jesus here is teaching the hebrew doctrine of "Conditionalism" not Greek "Immortal-soulism" (1) Conditionalism: Man is a candidate for immortality but does not possess it naturally. Mans body, mind, soul, and spirit are mortal and that death is an unconscious sleep. Perhaps he is teaching a hybrid doctrine. Playing the Sola Scriptura game with the Protestant canaon we can still say: If it is God's spirit that animates the body and leaves it at death there is no "man's ... spirit". The question is, "Is a person born of the spirit?" If so, that person is born of God's spirit and no longer identifies with the flesh. At death that person does not see death, does not taste death, streams of living water flow forth from that person who does not die but has continuous eternal life in God. Can you admit to that? The body sleeps without the spirit until resurrection. But it is in the spirit that one's deepest self abides. Matthew 25:41-46 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."Why does the fire need to be eternal? I guess you might say for the devil and his angels and not humans? Still, how can punishment be eternal if one ceases to exist? Indeed, many people choose to end thier own lives thinking that an end to their existence is an end to their suffering. The death Jesus speaks of is a spiritual death apart from God as in "Let the dead bury the dead." perhaps you might benefit from knowing that Satan is in control of greek philosophy and the immortal souls is an integral part of it. And how does Satan benefit from this doctrine? How does the proposed fallacy of eternal punishmnet in Hell for humans benefit Satan. If anything it provides motivation to follow Christ much more so than mere death. If Satan is in control of anything it is the hearts and minds of those who seek to accuse others. That is his business. That is his primary concern. Let us not join him. Revelation 12
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser [Satan]of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
|
|
|
Post by Pietro on Aug 10, 2003 11:46:35 GMT -5
Tangential to this topic is that of saint canonization. The process goes something like this: If the examination of the servant of God's life and his or her writings reveal a life consistent with authentic holiness and heroic love of God and neighbor, then the Vatican congregation charged with oversight of the canonization process decides whether a formal commission to study the servant of God's life will be formed. If the step of appointing a study commission is taken, the candidate for sainthood is granted the title "Venerable", meaning the person's qualities are deemed particularly worthy of reverence and emulation. Beyond the generally intensified scrutiny of data which is now gatherd with regard to the one known as "Venerable", the examination of reputed miracles is the essence of this phase of the process. In cases of martyrdom, the requisite for proven miracles may be minimized or waived and in cases where the heroic virtue of life is clearly provable, two proven miracles suffice as evidence of extraordinary holiness and allow one to be granted the Church's ceremonies of beatification, in which they receive the title "Blessed". In cases where the heroic virtue of one is less clearly proven, but seemingly evident, a third or a fourth miracle may be required before beatification occurs. One who has been beatified by the Church is considered particularly blessed by God and therefore worthy of a certain degree of veneration by the faithful. This permission to venerate is a much more limited scope though than what would ultimately be granted by virtue of canonization. Public reverence of one who is titled "Blessed" can be permitted in restricted circumstances, but ordinarily public prayers in his or her honor, or pkmtyolmes with prayers that make reference to the one beatified are permitted only in special cases and in rather localized circumstances. Once the permission of this localized veneration is granted, two more provable miracles are necessary for the candidate to progress to the pinnacle of the process and to merit declaration as a canonized saint, one who is definitively deemed to dwell with God in heaven. Canonization ceremonies formalize this declaration and recognize the person as one worthy of public veneration by the universal Church, holding him or her up as a model of imitation and as a powerful intercessor for all. See, for example the process for Juan Diego: www.frpat.com/juandiegoillescas.htmSee also: www.lourdes-france.org/gb/gbsb0027.htmwww.katharinedrexel.org/canonization.htmIntercession requires consciousness. If the person is dead (unconscious) no intercession is possible. How then do the miracles happen? Usually miracles of healing. The anticipated response would be that it is Satan somehow causing the miracles to deceive. So the question comes down to: are these miracles the work of the Holy Spirit or of Satan? The same question was asked of Jesus. “22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?" 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons." 25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house. 30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.Orthodox belief is that it is the Holy Spirit rather than Satan working miracles through the intercession of saints who have pkmtyolped from this life to life in God.
|
|
|
Post by RealistState on Aug 10, 2003 15:43:32 GMT -5
Was away for the weekend, so it looks like I'll have some reading to catch up on. Hope to be back later.
May the Peace of the Lord be with you.
|
|
|
Post by Protestant on Aug 10, 2003 19:14:00 GMT -5
No. The eternal life we receive when we are born again is not an immortal soul. It is a guantantee of salvation.
John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth- those who have done good, to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to a resurrection of condemnation"
Those people who are born again and receive eternal life will eventually die. But at the resurrection they will be made immortal.
because the punishment is death. death is eternal. Fire is the method of execution.
Two reasons. (1) The doctrine of eternal torment makes God out to be a tyrant.
(2) Satan gets his demons to pretend to be the dead in order to deceive. Saul and the witch of endor with a demon pretending to be Samuel is a cpkmtyollic example.
Yes this is one of satans deceptions. No Roman "saint" is a mediator. The miracles if any are of satanic origin.
1 tim 2:5 "There is one mediator between God and man the man christ Jesus"
|
|
|
Post by Heart4Him on Aug 11, 2003 0:17:46 GMT -5
Yes you are right and it was invented by Satan! The Doctrine of mans natural immortality is one of Satan's most successful deceptions. Not only has he deceived every false religion on earth for all time he has even managed to infiltrate the Jewish and Christian churches. Inspite of the fact that it is not in the hebrew or christian bibles. Sorry that I was not clearer in my statement. When I meant it was handed down since the fall of man...I should have said since creation. But Adam and Eve hadn't had any kids before the fall. Adam was made in the image of God. I don't take that as in the physical body, but spiritual. And the "‘You will not surely die.." was in regards to physical death NOT of the immortality of the soul. Intersting view you have of this, but I think it is very inaccurate and you are adding meaning to scripture that is not there. Again it is not in regards to the physical body. I believe it is in regards to the soul. To have an immortal soul does not require omniscience, omnipresence or omnipotence. Aren't the angels immortal? Are they omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent? Hope you realize they aren't! No, they aren't. "sleep" here is metaphorically used of physical death. And yes, Lazarus was physically dead. This is no proof of soul sleep. Well, as there is no purgatory, I agree with that....but Lazarus was not in hell either. The soul would have been in Abraham's bosum side of Sheol. But you aren't making much of a point here. The miracle showed that Jesus could raise the dead. Actually, it IS about the physical resurrection. Those who are wicked will be resurrected and be judged at the Great White Throne judgement, and when condemned, will be thrown into the the lake of fire. (Rev. 20 ) The righteous will be physically raised when the living are raptured. (I Thes. 4) The tribulation saints will be 'made alive' after the tribulation. (Rev. 20) Usually those who believe in 'soul sleep' also believe in its necessary corollary which is annihilation of the wicked. That they are never resurrected, and do not face punishment in the lake of fire. They just cease to exist. The above pkmtyolpage in John disputes that.
|
|
|
Post by Protestant on Aug 11, 2003 0:38:59 GMT -5
You are totally wrong. We who believe in the bible doctrine of soul sleep understand that the wicked will be raised and will stand in front of the judgement bar of God. They will be thrown into the lake of fire each according to their works.
clearly it is. But you go ahead and believe whatever you wish. If you are satisfied with satanic desception thats fine by me.
show me anywhere in the bible where it says that man has an immortal soul! or immortal anything for that matter.
|
|
|
Post by Heart4Him on Aug 11, 2003 0:52:58 GMT -5
You are totally wrong. We who believe in the bible doctrine of soul sleep understand that the wicked will be raised and will stand in front of the judgement bar of God. They will be thrown into the lake of fire each according to their works. clearly it is. But you go ahead and believe whatever you wish. If you are satisfied with satanic desception thats fine by me. Ya know...you are a very, very rude person! Don't see much in the way of the fruit of the Spirit in you, dear. So rather than enchange in any interaction with someone who gets nasty...goodbye!
|
|
|
Post by Protestant on Aug 11, 2003 1:03:24 GMT -5
sure. you seem to make my blood boil. thats because you seem to ignore answers to questions that i put up and ask them again and again. Then when i tell you that i have answered a question you tell me i havent without saying why.
It makes putting up anwers to questions extemely frustrating.
you seem to be totally committed to the pagan greek doctrine of the immortality of the soul.
|
|
|
Post by RealistState on Aug 11, 2003 4:57:56 GMT -5
Hello Protestant...
It's unfortunate that the discussion between you and Heart4Him ended so abruptly.
I have to laugh though, because now you know how Roman Catholics feel when they need to repeat answers regarding doctrine several times within threads. Perhaps if you refrain from using adjectives such as "pagan" and "satanic" regarding doctrine your discussions would be more fruitful.
Now, I think where we left off was on the Josephus Discourse with the Greeks. In reading the Discourse, I do not see how your claims that from this paper the entire philosophy of immotal soul-ism came from the Greeks. Than you brought in Philo (an interesting character and contemporary of Jesus). From what I've been reading, he sought to find parallels of Greek philosophy (not mythology) and the beliefs of the Hebrews. In addition he was not formally trained as a Hebrew scholar. So are you saying Philo is the "father" of the so called "Alexanderian pharisees"?
|
|
|
Post by Pietro on Aug 12, 2003 8:15:32 GMT -5
The kingdom of God is at hand, now, within you. The fullness of life is available to all those born in the Spirit. Life, abaundant life, eternal unending life is given to those born of the Spirit. It is unfortunate,brother, that you close yourself to the fullness of the Good News in order to cling to your personal interpretation of some scripture pkmtyolpages while ignoring others.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
John 7 37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Can living waters come out of a dead person?
John 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will [glow=blue,2,300]never[/glow] see death." 52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
He said "NEVER" not "temporarily".
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall [glow=blue,2,300]NEVER[/glow] perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
Matthew 10:28 "...fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who can kill both body and soul in Hell."
How else can one kill the body and not the soul?
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Aug 12, 2003 8:37:14 GMT -5
I may have thrown the towel in a bit early. I have been reading the Gospels from the perspective of a soul sleeper and have found numerous problems. In fact, I got tired of listing them. The Gospel of John is particularly filled with references to never seeing death, never dying for those who are born of the spirit. Just a few examples: John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Of course many here have a problem with taking Jesus at his words. John 7 37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. Can living waters come out of a dead person? John 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." 52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.He said "never" not "temporarily". John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
I am not disagreeing with you or what you wrote. I just think you want these words to apply now and in reality they apply to the saved after the resurrection. No one has a glorified body at this time except a select few that were taken as the bible tells us. Paul and Peter both admit that they will not get their rewards (eternal life) until Jesus returns. We know that God loved David and that he will have eternal life, but look at what was said about David in Acts. Acts clearly says that David DID NOT ASCEND TO HEAVEN and that he was still in his tomb. That was hundreds of years before this statement was issued.
No one seems to want to answer the question of why there will be a resurrection if people are already in heaven at the time of death.[/color]
|
|