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Post by marysia on Jul 17, 2003 13:50:01 GMT -5
If I were a known adulterer, my pastor would excommunicate me if I refused to repent. In that case my pastor would make a judgement about the validity of my profession of faith. If I truly repented (not just by saying an act of contrition out of fear of hellfire) then he would judge my sin to be forgiven. That is my interpretation of it. Also note that in the verse in context, Jeus is giving this power to the disciples, not only to the apostles. I wonder if this pkmtyolpage can be applied to a lay person who leads a non-believer to faith. John 20:20-25 (KJV) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. [21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. [22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: [23] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. [24] But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. [25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. okay - just read this at lunch -- this is from a book Pierced By A Sword by Bud MacFarlane Jr:
[they are talking about confession to a priest] Let's say you stole 10 bucks from me, felt sorry and asked me for forgiveness, then i forgave you. well, that's what Jesus did on the cross - forgave all sins up to that point and into the future. ... {continues} but let's suppose you've still got my ten bucks, even after i forgive you. confession is like giving me bak the tenspot, and on top of it, my deciding to forget you ever stole it in the first place. After Jesus appeared to the apolstles in the upper room, he gave the the, quote, power to 'absolve sins'. it's in the Gospel of John. the word He used wasn't forgive (only Jesus forgives). Jesus used the Hebrew word for "absolve" which means to settle accounts or to retore to original state. ... confession is the cleansing of your soul - the absolution. your penance is paying back the ten bucks - either literally or in spiritual action. so the sacrament has three parts - forgiveness (Jesus), absolution (preits) and penance/reparation.
when in confession myself, it's the priest giving absolution - he's never forgiven me...
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 17, 2003 17:13:03 GMT -5
Very well said, Marysia. Tyvm for replying to the thread God bless
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Post by Shirley on Jul 17, 2003 17:23:31 GMT -5
To Bondslave; Actually, I'm merely discussing a topic that is important to me. Where did you get the idea I'm accusing anyone of anything? I think you are being a bit defensive. If you want to discuss this topic, lets discuss it. I've been very civil. Why turn it into something ugly? God bless Not meaning to be too uhm...anal, but this is the debate forum...
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 17, 2003 18:17:23 GMT -5
To Shirley;
You would have to read Bondslave's post. I was responding to something she said. She claimed I was making some kind of accusation. So, I responded. I did want this to be a calm thread.
God bless
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Post by Paulie on Jul 18, 2003 15:51:36 GMT -5
If ALL sin is forgiven by accepting Christ, then why did Jesus give the apostles the power to absolve sin? I have never heard a good explanation of this by non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians. God bless Please take the time to read the Bible before making false claims. Jesus did NOT give anyone the "power" to forgive sin. They were given the ability to heal, cast out deamons and have the "right words" should they be taken to trial for ministering.
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Post by marysia on Jul 18, 2003 16:33:50 GMT -5
Please take the time to read the Bible before making false claims. Jesus did NOT give anyone the "power" to forgive sin. They were given the ability to heal, cast out deamons and have the "right words" should they be taken to trial for ministering. you're right - the aposltes were not given the power to forgive - only to retain/absolve. no one that i know in the Rcc even thinks it the priest that forgives - although some may be misguided individuals. the priest is their, as the aspotles, to do as Jesus told them - those your retain/hold bound or those your absolve - it will be done. the priest guide us also in making restitution. also please note - cohdra didn't say forgive - that was your word - she used absolve. (here was a post from earlier with a paragraph from a book giving a little more realistic example okay - just read this at lunch -- this is from a book Pierced By A Sword by Bud MacFarlane Jr: [they are talking about confession to a priest] Let's say you stole 10 bucks from me, felt sorry and asked me for forgiveness, then i forgave you. well, that's what Jesus did on the cross - forgave all sins up to that point and into the future. ... {continues} but let's suppose you've still got my ten bucks, even after i forgive you. confession is like giving me bak the tenspot, and on top of it, my deciding to forget you ever stole it in the first place. After Jesus appeared to the apolstles in the upper room, he gave the the, quote, power to 'absolve sins'. it's in the Gospel of John. the word He used wasn't forgive (only Jesus forgives). Jesus used the Hebrew word for "absolve" which means to settle accounts or to retore to original state. ... confession is the cleansing of your soul - the absolution. your penance is paying back the ten bucks - either literally or in spiritual action. so the sacrament has three parts - forgiveness (Jesus), absolution (preits) and penance/reparation. when in confession myself, it's the priest giving absolution - he's never forgiven me... hope that helps - have a wonderful weekend!
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 18, 2003 17:35:44 GMT -5
Ty Marysia; I hate getting misquoted
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Post by genesda on Jul 21, 2003 11:50:15 GMT -5
If ALL sin is forgiven by accepting Christ, then why did Jesus give the apostles the power to absolve sin? I have never heard a good explanation of this by non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians. God bless Why don't you quote some scriptures where the apostles are hearing confessions and forgiving sins?
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Post by marysia on Jul 21, 2003 12:53:14 GMT -5
Why don't you quote some scriptures where the apostles are hearing confessions and forgiving sins? hi gene, in case you are rushed, cohdra didn't say forgive, she said absolve. Jesus gave the apostles the authority to release or hold bound on earth. Only Jesus actually forgives, they just absolve. i gave an example that's in today's "age" a few posts back. however with these new boards it's often hard to remember where we leave off - it is for me anyway.
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logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 21, 2003 13:21:42 GMT -5
I think that it's neat that when Jesus gives the Apostles the Power to absolve/retain sins (Jn 20), he Breathes on them. The only other place in the Bible where God breathes on Man is in Genesis when he breathes life into Adam. This is indeed an important moment in the Church because God is breathing restorative life into the Apostles and giving them a power to share that life (through forgiveness and communion with God and Church) with the rest of the believers.
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Post by marysia on Jul 23, 2003 6:36:34 GMT -5
I think that it's neat that when Jesus gives the Apostles the Power to absolve/retain sins (Jn 20), he Breathes on them. The only other place in the Bible where God breathes on Man is in Genesis when he breathes life into Adam. This is indeed an important moment in the Church because God is breathing restorative life into the Apostles and giving them a power to share that life (through forgiveness and communion with God and Church) with the rest of the believers. thought of you this morning and the "breathing" - there was a crisp cool breeze this morning - a rarity in florida this time of year - and all i could think was - thaks for the hug Lord. funny how without breathing we are dead - breath from God brought adam to life and breath from the Lord gave the aposltes the ability to restore life -- hhmmm go figure - God's pretty awesome!!!
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 23, 2003 23:39:36 GMT -5
He didn't. This is a Roman catholic twist on what the scriptures actually mean. [/color][/quote] How in the world is this a twist of scripture? This is from the KJV John 20:20-23 "And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Revised Standard Edition: "When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." Jesus empowered his disciples to forgive the sins of others in His name. But confessing our sins out loud (as we should all do) is just the first step. You must be TRULY sorry and attempt to repair the damage the sin has done. Please explain to me how the Roman Catholic Church has twised this clearly written scripture?? If you take the Bible literally (sola scripture), then you CANNOT exclude this scripture and base it on your own version of what it means. It is CLEARLY stated, not matter what version of the Bible you use - and I have purposely NOT used a Catholic Bible to quote this scripture. God Bless.
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 24, 2003 1:27:54 GMT -5
I agree with CatholicChristian;
There is no other way to interpret such a strightforward scripture, in any other manner than how it is presented.
God bless
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 24, 2003 19:22:19 GMT -5
genesda wrote:He didn't. This is a Roman catholic twist on what the scriptures actually mean.
Gene, are you going to explain how this is a Roman Catholic twist on what the scriptures actually mean?? I clearly quoted from the KJV Bible the exact scripture. I'm curious as to how you think the Catholic Church has changed this scripture?
God Bless.
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Post by marysia on Jul 25, 2003 8:03:14 GMT -5
genesda wrote:He didn't. This is a Roman catholic twist on what the scriptures actually mean. Gene, are you going to explain how this is a Roman Catholic twist on what the scriptures actually mean?? I clearly quoted from the KJV Bible the exact scripture. I'm curious as to how you think the Catholic Church has changed this scripture? God Bless. you may need to send him a little "note". have to admit i miss when we'd be emailed that someone responded to one of our comments. i've lost track on some myself!
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