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Post by Cohdra on Jul 11, 2003 2:34:07 GMT -5
If ALL sin is forgiven by accepting Christ, then why did Jesus give the apostles the power to absolve sin? I have never heard a good explanation of this by non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians.
God bless
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Post by BrianDaniel on Jul 11, 2003 21:19:58 GMT -5
If I were a known adulterer, my pastor would excommunicate me if I refused to repent. In that case my pastor would make a judgement about the validity of my profession of faith. If I truly repented (not just by saying an act of contrition out of fear of hellfire) then he would judge my sin to be forgiven. That is my interpretation of it. Also note that in the verse in context, Jeus is giving this power to the disciples, not only to the apostles. I wonder if this pkmtyolpage can be applied to a lay person who leads a non-believer to faith.
John 20:20-25 (KJV)
And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. [21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. [22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: [23] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
[24] But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. [25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 11, 2003 22:40:45 GMT -5
Very interesting interpretation. However, It does not say he gave them the ability to judge whether a sin is forgiven. It actually states he breathed on them, and gave them the power to absolve sin. It seems to be an actual power.
God bless
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Post by BrianDaniel on Jul 12, 2003 0:11:31 GMT -5
Very interesting interpretation. However, It does not say he gave them the ability to judge whether a sin is forgiven. It actually states he breathed on them, and gave them the power to absolve sin. It seems to be an actual power. God bless Interpret the verse with this one in mind: Luke 10:16-17 (ESV) "The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you re jects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me." [17] The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" Notice again it is not the Apostles. It is really Jesus who does the forgiving when we offer God's forgiveness and the person accepts it. The verse here explains how we can have the ability to forgive or retain sins by extension of the idea of "the one who hears you hears me." |
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Post by mook2357 on Jul 12, 2003 16:28:25 GMT -5
Very interesting interpretation. However, It does not say he gave them the ability to judge whether a sin is forgiven. It actually states he breathed on them, and gave them the power to absolve sin. It seems to be an actual power. God bless Sins are 'missing the mark' or wronging another...you "sin" against a brother, etc. Sin is not what most people claim in that it is "going against the laws of God" meaning that you "sin" against God. God's LAW is that we LOVE ONE ANOTHER, so "sinning against God" is the SAME AS "sinning against a brother" in that that was the law God gave...to NOT sin against a brother. Since it is our brother (used loosely to encompkmtyolp both genders) that we have offended, it is our brother that can forgive us. It is, however, through accepting Christ...because Christ is the annointing of God, the Spirit come to dwell within us, and with that Spirit, you always forgive, and with that Spirit, you always seek to be forgiven. Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Matthew 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Matthew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. |
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CubeX
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by CubeX on Jul 12, 2003 17:12:29 GMT -5
Well, how about you define absolve for us. THEN, go back and look up the Greek definitions of it for us. And THEN use multiple translations to define it for us. Or we could do that ourselves... ;D
I'll get back to you after I figure out that word. That's the first thing to do when dealing with translations. Also, what reference are you using?
-CubeX
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 13, 2003 0:09:48 GMT -5
I use The New English Bible
John 20: 21-23 The he breathed on them, saying "Receive the Holy Spirit! If you forgive any man's sins, they stand forgiven; If you pronounce them unforgiven, inforgiven they remain".
There is absolutely no way that you can portray this pkmtyolpage in any other manner than by a straightforward approach. It is a literal statement, with Christ giving the apostles an actual power.
Matthew 18:18 "I tell you this, whatever you forbid on earth, shall be forbidden in heaven; and whatever you allow on earth shall be allowed in heaven".
This, again, is a literal statement, and there is no room to over-interpret it, in order to fit in with your belief system. Furthermore, It would be ludicrous to assume that this ability would be granted to every Christian, as there would be utter chaos with Christians attempting to change doctrine every time they didn't like something. It was only meant for the apostles, then pkmtyolped on to those appointed by the apostles (including Paul)
God bless
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Trix
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Trix on Jul 13, 2003 1:04:50 GMT -5
Here are three different comments on this, from study guides:
1. He gives authority to announce forgiveness and to warn of guilt, as authorized by the Holy Spirit.
This lays down the duty of the church to proclaim forgiveness to the penitent believer, and the duty of the church to warn the unbeliever that they are forfeiting the mercy of God.
2. If a person confesses his sin and turns to Christ. we can tell him that his sins are forgiven by God If he refuses to confess his sin, we can tell him he will face the judgment of God.
3. In Mark 2, when Jesus pronounced forgiveness to a paralyzed man, the Pharisees were aghast. `Only God has the right to forgive sin,' they said. And they were right. What, then, does this verse mean? It means we as His ampkmtyolbadors don't provide forgiveness, but we do proclaim it. Therefore, to the one who says, `I don't feel forgiven,' it is our responsibility to say, `According to the Word of God, if you opened up your heart to Jesus Christ and believe in His work on the Cross, your sin is gone.' Conversely, to the one who says, `I don't need Jesus Christ. I'm into meditation,' - it is our responsibility to say, `That might be your thing, but it's not God's. Your sin remains because only the Blood of Jesus can wash it away.'
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 13, 2003 2:07:52 GMT -5
To Trix:
Your sill not taking a straightforward scripture at face value. Your interpreting it to death and beyond. It clearly states he gave them the power to forgive or retain sin. As they would say, so it would be.
God bless
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Post by genesda on Jul 14, 2003 7:20:59 GMT -5
If ALL sin is forgiven by accepting Christ, then why did Jesus give the apostles the power to absolve sin? I have never heard a good explanation of this by non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians. God bless [/color] |
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Post by Bondslave on Jul 14, 2003 8:45:43 GMT -5
Very interesting interpretation. However, It does not say he gave them the ability to judge whether a sin is forgiven. It actually states he breathed on them, and gave them the power to absolve sin. It seems to be an actual power. God bless You seem to be reading past the obvious while accusing others of doing just that. You suggest a special power was given to the apostles to forgive sins with the emphasis upon that they were apostles. In verse 22 scripture says Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit. And THEN He told them about forgiving or not forgiving sins. It would look much more likely the "special power" is related to having the Holy Spirit and not one of "office" of apostle. And one question for you...if your interpretation were correct than, if you wish to be consistent, Thomas was the only apostle that did not have such power since when Jesus explained it in verse 23 Thomas was not there as can be seen from verse 24. And as far as we can read in scripture, Jesus did not breath an additional time to impart this "special power" to Thomas...so technically, by your explaination, he was excluded and it's not even an apostle thing. Blessings, Bondslave |
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 15, 2003 12:28:48 GMT -5
To Bondslave;
Actually, I'm merely discussing a topic that is important to me. Where did you get the idea I'm accusing anyone of anything? I think you are being a bit defensive. If you want to discuss this topic, lets discuss it. I've been very civil. Why turn it into something ugly?
God bless
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Post by Bondslave on Jul 15, 2003 20:44:12 GMT -5
To Bondslave; Actually, I'm merely discussing a topic that is important to me. Where did you get the idea I'm accusing anyone of anything? I think you are being a bit defensive. If you want to discuss this topic, lets discuss it. I've been very civil. Why turn it into something ugly? God bless I'm not being defensive, I'm not being uncivil, and here is what I was referencing from you in relation to accusing... It would appear you are the one that is being defensive. Blessings, Bondslave |
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Post by Cohdra on Jul 15, 2003 21:17:32 GMT -5
Well, maybe it would be best if we din't post to each other. Your telling me I'm making accustaions, I'm not knowledgable on different subjects; Perhaps you would be more comforatable not answering my posts. I don't want to fight, just discuss. peace, and take it easy
God bless
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Post by Bondslave on Jul 15, 2003 21:58:17 GMT -5
Well, maybe it would be best if we din't post to each other. Your telling me I'm making accustaions, I'm not knowledgable on different subjects; Perhaps you would be more comforatable not answering my posts. I don't want to fight, just discuss. peace, and take it easy God bless As you wish. My intent was not to make you defensive. Bondslave |
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