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Post by masarap on Apr 3, 2004 19:10:37 GMT -5
I can see how it could. Someone's faith may be weak..for whatever reason..doesn't even have to be a baby Christian..even an old timer..who life has kicked around a bit. They read something like that..and think..maybe it is all a lie..and so they give up on all of it..losing all hope..falling by the wayside..and hardly anyone notices..until they have truly stepped over the edge into the abyss.. Was it intended to drive one over the edge? No..I don't think so. But when it is presented as fact..that the bible is a pretty book full of figurative speeches..parables and myths..how is one to determine what parts are literal..and what parts are simply a nice fable to be told? Perhaps the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was simply a parable.. Perhaps the need of a Saviour is a parable.. Perhaps the need to be born again is simply figurative..maybe you don't really need to believe..to be born again.. You see where this can go? I have never been a proponent of evolution. And I do think in scientific ways..I love science..as far as it goes. Some things can be proven beyond doubt. Others cannot. How can they know that their dating methods are accurate? There are none who were there then..to say that yes..that was created on that date, 2 million years ago.. I don't pretend to know all. Do I think the earth is only 6000 years old? No, most likely not. However, I don't believe that an amoeba is part of my ancestry either. YES!!! SJUDY, Much agreed!! And just because it did not cause BabySister to stumble does not mean it would not cause someone else to!! Boy, I am suprised at people too much!! they think because something doesnt effect them it doesn't effect anybody else and quite frankly it shows that they either think 1. everyone should think like them, or 2. its somebody elses problem. Either way it sure is a self centered approach. Jesus left the 99 to go after the one sheep!! Should we not be concerned when we preach that the answers are found in the Word of God "except of course..... this piece of Scripture, its just a parable you see...., science has proved that, oh and also this section of Scripture has been tainted by man and wait a minute this part has also been proven to be a myth....."
How many people have to bring disrepute on the Word of God to promote their own ideas on Scripture before someone looking for truth runs like a grape ape the other direction??? I know I would.... I have honestly looked a twisted and wrangled Genesis to see how it could possibly even remotely be a Parable and the science of herminutics (Bible study) says it can't be done... So any rational person longing for Spiritual truth would run a thousand miles in the other direction away from a Bible that is deceptive and people that are hypocrites....
I remember when I first came to Christ... I had several discussions with "Christians" that caused me to just about walkaway all together from Church.... I don't think I was tempted to walk away from Jesus and that was because I had no one else to go to.... Its really sad truth is relative anymore, many are teaching this kind of Christianity from the Pulpit
WOW!! all I can say is its all about pride... This person teaching this kaka has a personal agenda to feed a big ego... Even Ray Charles could see that...
If the FEAR of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom and knowledge, what would pride be the beginning of?
Again to all here defending the Word of God and TRUTH in general...., I'm with you... Blessings, Masarap
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 19:15:11 GMT -5
I can see how it could. Someone's faith may be weak..for whatever reason..doesn't even have to be a baby Christian..even an old timer..who life has kicked around a bit. They read something like that..and think..maybe it is all a lie..and so they give up on all of it..losing all hope..falling by the wayside..and hardly anyone notices..until they have truly stepped over the edge into the abyss.. Was it intended to drive one over the edge? No..I don't think so. But when it is presented as fact..that the bible is a pretty book full of figurative speeches..parables and myths..how is one to determine what parts are literal..and what parts are simply a nice fable to be told? Perhaps the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was simply a parable.. Perhaps the need of a Saviour is a parable.. Perhaps the need to be born again is simply figurative..maybe you don't really need to believe..to be born again.. You see where this can go? I have never been a proponent of evolution. And I do think in scientific ways..I love science..as far as it goes. Some things can be proven beyond doubt. Others cannot. How can they know that their dating methods are accurate? There are none who were there then..to say that yes..that was created on that date, 2 million years ago.. I don't pretend to know all. Do I think the earth is only 6000 years old? No, most likely not. However, I don't believe that an amoeba is part of my ancestry either. SJudy, it is exactly as you say - and more. If one may deduce that Adam was just a figurative myth or legend - then the snake wasn't real, the fruit wasn't real, goodness - there was no tree, no eating of the tree, no garden, no expulsion, no covering of Adam and Eve with coats of skin - no promise of salvation. It all comes tumbling like a stack of dominoes - one knocking down the other until one's faith in the whole thing is left crumbling. If there was no sin, there was no need of a Saviour. If no need of a Saviour - then there was no need of a person named Jesus. Perhaps he was just a myth also. Maybe none of the things in Matther, Mark, Luke and John really happened. Surely is there was no Jesus, there was no feeding of five thousand people with loaves and fishes. No raising from the dead of Jairus' daughter, no raising of Lazarus from the tomb. No promise of a place being built for us in heaven. No crucifixion, no burial, and certainly no resurrection. We that are celebrating the myth of the resurrection next Sunday are deceived. And since none of these things are real, then we ought to do as is suggesting in Corinthians. Let us then just eat, and drink, and be merry - for tomorrow we die! Go get that gusto. Be happy! Enjoy yourself. Do what makes you feel good. There is no afterlife. So indulge! Your post is phenomenally clear and right on the money!#nosmileys
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Post by Traffic Demon on Apr 3, 2004 19:29:50 GMT -5
Nicodemus - "And yet, surely you would not, or could not, categorically assure that this scenario would NOT be played out in the mind of a young person."
If it were to play out in their mind, it would not be because of my demonstration of the accuracy of evolutionary theory, but because they have, like you, failed to fully read and comprehend what I have written on the subject.
"Eternity will requite every word that we speak. And if it results in another's fall, or offends one of these little ones - there will be an enormous price to pay."
And yet, you and k8reader have failed to demonstrate that my posts on this subject have, or even can, be such a stumbling block. The fun part is that your argument is completely inapplicable to any discussion of the accuracy of evolutionary theory, as the physical evidence supporting the theory continues to support it regardless of what any individual might do with it.
"As per an earlier discussion - why not just help people to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ - and save this 'hobby horse' of yours for those who pay you to teach them this."
Because as Christians with an obligation to the truth, we have a responsibility to stop the spread of the complete lie that is the young Earth creationist model. Those who continue to spread that lie detract from the credibility of the witness of all Christians, and as you said yourself, "Eternity will requite every word that we speak." A lie told in God's name is still a lie.
SJudy - "They read something like that..and think..maybe it is all a lie"
Except that never once in all my postings have I ever so much as implied that any part of Scripture is a lie. Your scenario is not based on reality, but on a straw man model of my statements
"But when it is presented as fact..that the bible is a pretty book full of figurative speeches..parables and myths"
Um, the Bible already contains figurative speeches, parables, and myths, regardless of how one interprets Genesis. Even Jesus Himself used them frequently.
"how is one to determine what parts are literal..and what parts are simply a nice fable to be told?"
By interpreting Scripture literally whenever possible, adopting a non-literal interpretation only when the physical evidence or another pkmtyolpage of Scripture would contradict a literal interpretation.
"Perhaps the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was simply a parable.. Perhaps the need of a Saviour is a parable."
Both would be inappropriate conclusions, as neither the resurrection of Jesus nor our need for a Saviour are contradicted by either physical evidence or Scripture.
"I have never been a proponent of evolution."
Why not?
"How can they know that their dating methods are accurate?"
Because they yield similar results when compared to other independent dating methods, and because there has not been shown any logical reason for doubting their accuracy.
"There are none who were there then..to say that yes..that was created on that date, 2 million years ago."
Yet direct observation of an event is not necessary to demonstrate the occurrence of that event.
"Do I think the earth is only 6000 years old?"
How old do you think it is?
"However, I don't believe that an amoeba is part of my ancestry either."
Why not, since our ancestry from single-celled organisms has been demonstrated through the physical evidence for some time?
"Why do you still refuse to answer the question? What's the big deal?"
The big deal is that the question has no bearing on the validity of evolutionary theory, and that you have not been able to show that my posts could in any way be a stumbling block to others.
"What would you do? How would you feel? Would your interest in persuading others change?"
So, you're basically asking that if my demonstration of the truth of God's Creation were to cause a hypothetical individual to stumble because they misunderstood my posts, would I change my behavior? No, I wouldn't. As Christians, we have an obligation to the truth, regardless of what others choose to do with that truth.
"What is at the root of your need to debate this issue Traffic?"
That obligation to the truth is the source of my desire to demonstrate that the young Earth creationist position is an utter lie, which I have done countless times through the physical evidence.
"As I told you before, I happen to believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis"
Why, when I have demonstrated that interpretation to be false so many times through the physical evidence?
"I won't engage in a debate with you to try and prove my position correct. Do you know why?"
Because you recognize that your position has no evidence to support it would be my hope.
"I do wonder; however, why it should matter to you whether or not someone believes in the literal interpretation."
Because that literal interpretation is a false one, and as Christians, we have an obligation to expose lies such as this.
"Have you ever told your brother or sister that you think it's great that they believe in the literal interpretation?"
Of course not. Why should anybody think it is great that a brother or sister supports that which has been shown to be a lie?
--Y2Traf
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 19:38:18 GMT -5
I've been following somewhat the recent revelation of the priest of the dark arts, Ozzy Ozbourne, as he reveals how his own daughter has just entered drug rehab at seventeen.
For years, Ozzy has been a spokesman and a role model for the drug culture. His music has contributed to the numbers of young people filling their veins and their bodies with these chemical timebombs - and many are in their graves today because of these drugs, and because of the suicides that his kind of music leads to.
Now all of a sudden, drugs are bad. Why? Because it has touched his own home and hearth. The damage and destruction that this warlock has done to millions and to himself - is now touching his own little baby girl.
Why am I saying this?
Well, TD, until your teachings come home to roost in your own family - and until you see what the results of a diminished faith in God can do, you will not believe, nor will you repent.
I believe this is in God's hands now.
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Post by k8reader on Apr 3, 2004 19:44:43 GMT -5
I really want to thank k8 and Nicodermus for needling Traffic over and over with these absurd hypotheticals... Because you know what? You remind me of how I saw the LIGHT! -- Once I realized Christians were willing to tell ANY lie -- make up the most horrendous case scenarios against any other person in another religion, or ANY other purely speculative and false scenarios they could think of to generate/create guilt and doubt (stumbling arguments for instance) , ridicule, and basically pressure someone who holds a different ideal than them to "shut up" -- well..... Once I saw what people are willing to censor, silence -- that's when my eyes were opened to just how false this belief is. It was seeing time and again people pulling stunts like this that openned the gate to TRUTH for me.... Better look to your own good intentions if you REALLY want to SEE the source of stumbling. Supporting a lie at ALL cost will never fly with people who captured the ethical fundamentals in it all, don't cha know....... Wow, the hostility I'm feeling has just totally made my needles wilt!
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Post by Shirley on Apr 3, 2004 20:15:13 GMT -5
Nicodemus - "And yet, surely you would not, or could not, categorically assure that this scenario would NOT be played out in the mind of a young person."If it were to play out in their mind, it would not be because of my demonstration of the accuracy of evolutionary theory, but because they have, like you, failed to fully read and comprehend what I have written on the subject. So you would feel no responsibility if your thoughts on the matter caused one to stumble?What if it could be shown that just such a thing could..and did occur? Perhaps not with your particular posts ...but others..similar in content that undermine the faith of one? Not your responsibility still? Don't care if such a one walks away and spends eternity in hell?Unfortunately my scenario is based on fact..and personal experience. But why should you care about that? Not your responsibility if I stumbled..walked away, right?And who determines what is literal and what is not? You? How do you know? Is there scientific evidence for the Resurrection? Do you have scientific proof that it did occur? Are there other cases to prove it out?Because it simply is not logical to me. Not anything I was taught..I came from a nonreligious home..nothing was taught.Why did you cut off my answer when quoting me? I have no idea how old the earth is..nor does it truly matter to me. What is the point of knowing the age? I do think it is older than 6000 years..I stated that earlier. There is not a date or timeframe given in the bible beyond the amount of time for creation..that is from the time God spoke the seas, etc into being. Before this, the earth was void..without form. Even your scientists know this.Because I don't think God is an ameoba either..and we were made in His image..
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Post by k8reader on Apr 3, 2004 20:25:10 GMT -5
"Why do you still refuse to answer the question? What's the big deal?"The big deal is that the question has no bearing on the validity of evolutionary theory, and that you have not been able to show that my posts could in any way be a stumbling block to others. So? Is evolutionary theory the only thing you talk about? There, you answered the question. Thank you. Now, while you would not "change your behavior" if your debates caused a brother or sister to stumble, I would change mine. You are right when you say that Christians have an obligation to the Truth. The Truth we are obligated to is Jesus Christ, who Himself claimed to be (the Way), the Truth (and the Life). And He has commanded us to Love one and other: John 13: "34A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."Therefore, out of my love for you I will support your faith in God, not try to prove you wrong! Then your desire is to prove your brothers and sisters wrong. They believe as they do because they believe Gods Word to be completely literally true. Their belief honors God. Your evidence means nothing to me. I'm sorry if I disappoint you. It is good evidence though, and I understand why you believe as you do. Sorry to burst your bubble again I won't debate you because my debating you could cause a brother or sister to stumble, and I don't want to do that. I think it's just great when my brothers and sisters believe the word of God! There are so many interpretations out there, of so many different things. End times, baptism, eternal salvation, total depravity, you name it and Christians debate it! We sure are a prideful bunch! I will not debate this issue with you. I have been working on my pride issues, and I don't need to be right as much as I need to make you feel encouraged. I don't care if God built the house in seven days or if He created a house that built itself! It is more important to me that everyone sees that we are Jesus' disciples because we love one another! I would love to talk with you about what the Lord is doing in your life, or what is your favorite Easter Hymn! How about we debate which is the best Psalm? ;D
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Post by Kee on Apr 3, 2004 20:34:57 GMT -5
Wow, the hostility I'm feeling has just totally made my needles wilt! Ah come on k8... you read "honesty" as hostility?? Geesh..... let's all be fake instead shall we? The whole point here is that cornering Traffic for something he's NOT doing is shameful from my point of view. Good God man -- NONE of you can manage to see what a testiment to your faith this guy is. Instead, SO many feel totally threatened by him. And why? I'll tell you why.... Because he's got the guts and tenacity to admit that your Bible isn't the literal word for word verbartum truth. For him, there is deeper meaning behind the symbols and the myths. So many miss the statement of faith he makes, and let me tell you.... sweeping under the carpet what has been made possible for us to observe through modern science and technology is no way to earn any credibility that what you hold is any truth.
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 20:40:56 GMT -5
Ah come on k8... you read "honesty" as hostility?? Geesh..... let's all be fake instead shall we? The whole point here is that cornering Traffic for something he's NOT doing is shameful from my point of view. Good God man -- NONE of you can manage to see what a testiment to your faith this guy is. Instead, SO many feel totally threatened by him. And why? I'll tell you why.... Because he's got the guts and tenacity to admit that your Bible isn't the literal word for word verbartum truth. For him, there is deeper meaning behind the symbols and the myths. So many miss the statement of faith he makes, and let me tell you.... sweeping under the carpet what has been made possible for us to observe through modern science and technology is no way to earn any credibility that what you hold is any truth. He has yet to explain any of those things that I know of. If they have deeper meanings - why does he not lay them out for our spiritual edification. You say that he has found the deeper meanings behind the symbols and the myths. Ok. then let him tell us what they are! Build up - rather than just tear down. By debunking someone's faith in something, without offering an alternative only leaves people an empty shell and uninstructed. What are the deeper meanings, Traffic.
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Post by Kee on Apr 3, 2004 20:47:03 GMT -5
I've been following somewhat the recent revelation of the priest of the dark arts, Ozzy Ozbourne, as he reveals how his own daughter has just entered drug rehab at seventeen. For years, Ozzy has been a spokesman and a role model for the drug culture. His music has contributed to the numbers of young people filling their veins and their bodies with these chemical timebombs - and many are in their graves today because of these drugs, and because of the suicides that his kind of music leads to. Now all of a sudden, drugs are bad. Why? Because it has touched his own home and hearth. The damage and destruction that this warlock has done to millions and to himself - is now touching his own little baby girl. Why am I saying this? Well, TD, until your teachings come home to roost in your own family - and until you see what the results of a diminished faith in God can do, you will not believe, nor will you repent. I believe this is in God's hands now. You are pathetic to link first, what was it? Gracious, not even worth going back and reading, but it was a rapist or something wasn't it? -- AND NOW we've catapulted to drug abuse as being connected to scientific theories and evolutionsionary theory. YOU SIR -- are the very reason I diss'd belonging to such a poor excuse for those who call themselves Christian. You don't represent God, the All That Is, but rather what you hate and FEAR in society and within yourself or your children.
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 20:51:21 GMT -5
You are pathetic to link first, what was it? Gracious, not even worth going back and reading, but it was a rapist or something wasn't it? -- AND NOW we've catapulted to drug abuse as being connected to scientific theories and evolutionsionary theory. YOU SIR -- are the very reason I diss'd belonging to such a poor excuse for those who call themselves Christian. You don't represent God, the All That Is, but rather what you hate and FEAR in society and within yourself or your children. I am pleased that you are reading my humble contributions to this thread. The fact that you have read them and they are on your mind means that perhaps my message and point is getting through. But you are right in one thing. I am a very poor representative of our dear Father in heaven - and wish that I could do it as well as some others, but I do fear and hate sin and its destructive powers. I've felt them personally - and I am so glad that I am saved and set free and forgiven.
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Post by Kee on Apr 3, 2004 21:01:11 GMT -5
He has yet to explain any of those things that I know of. If they have deeper meanings - why does he not lay them out for our spiritual edification. You say that he has found the deeper meanings behind the symbols and the myths. Ok. then let him tell us what they are! But he has.... you just don't pay attention and/or perhaps have not been around long enough to hear them. Besides, let's do it straight shall we? Traffic spends a lot of time defending his belief because his brothers and sisters focus in on those elements rather than listening to how it is he reconciles what is fact from allegory. That would be those who wag their finger at Traf -- claiming and implying his love and knowledge of science is a demonic thing............... Sounds good, except.... that's precisely what you are doing by not bothering to listen. Where have you been anyway? In the young earth camp, dare I guess??
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Post by RodP on Apr 3, 2004 21:15:24 GMT -5
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Post by Kee on Apr 3, 2004 21:21:44 GMT -5
If it were to play out in their mind, it would not be because of my demonstration of the accuracy of evolutionary theory, but because they have, like you, failed to fully read and comprehend what I have written on the subject. "As per an earlier discussion - why not just help people to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ - and save this 'hobby horse' of yours for those who pay you to teach them this."Because as Christians with an obligation to the truth, we have a responsibility to stop the spread of the complete lie that is the young Earth creationist model. Those who continue to spread that lie detract from the credibility of the witness of all Christians, and as you said yourself, "Eternity will requite every word that we speak." A lie told in God's name is still a lie. Wow.... now there's a statement grounded in integrity. Traf... what's the deal? Why are so many Christians these days willing to compromise this? Are they that insecure? That weak in their faith?
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Post by Kee on Apr 3, 2004 21:24:37 GMT -5
This should surprise me?? How about your blah, blah, bha? Not even.... How ya doing RodP? ;D
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