|
Post by RodP on Apr 3, 2004 21:59:19 GMT -5
This should surprise me?? How about your blah, blah, bha? Not even.... How ya doing RodP? ;D Still over your blah, blah b lah.....
|
|
|
Post by k8reader on Apr 3, 2004 22:03:51 GMT -5
Ah come on k8... you read "honesty" as hostility?? Geesh..... let's all be fake instead shall we? The whole point here is that cornering Traffic for something he's NOT doing is shameful from my point of view. Then you misunderstood! I was trying to help Traffic understand what I didn't want to do, not what he was doing! Fake?!? You injure me! I thought I was being charmingly witty! I'm not threatened by Traffic! We love each other! We are brother and sister! I agree, he is a testament to Christian faith! He has said that he believes in the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ based on faith alone! I agree that Traffic has guts! Let me assure you; I haven't missed his statement of faith! He has said several times that he has faith in Jesus Christ our Lord. But, please remember we literal believers in the Bible really don't need or want to earn any credibility. It matters not a wit if you think we're foolish, stupid, crazy or misguided! We have our Lord, and that's pretty much all that matters, really.
|
|
|
Post by k8reader on Apr 3, 2004 22:16:48 GMT -5
I am pleased that you are reading my humble contributions to this thread. The fact that you have read them and they are on your mind means that perhaps my message and point is getting through. I tend to agree with you Nic! That Holy Spirit sure is a smart One, isn't He! What are you saying? You are a wonderful representative my brother! I love all of your quotes and poems. So many times, you say exactly the right thing! Amen, and Amen! Sin is always packaged in such a pretty way. It's like opening the beautifully wrapped gift, to find that the vase inside is shattered. My the Lord protect all of us from its crafty lure!
|
|
|
Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 22:34:17 GMT -5
Yes, k8reader.
So many try to package sin up in a pretty package, and so many of those that would teach another gospel come to us as shining, brilliant angels of light.
Evil is so pervasive - and why can't people get it. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump! It doesn't take much more than a grain of sand to blind the eye - and it doesn't take much error to becloud the truth.
I've seen some pretty rough words thrown at us today - but I didn't hear my Lord call us those things - so I think we can keep on keeping on!
I am just so saddened that Traffic does not see the dangers he is presented, still - I would like to hear his explanation of the deeper things.
I've always wanted to see someone pull a rabbit out of his hat - so I'm interested in how he is going to produce faith out of unbelief.
|
|
|
Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 22:37:24 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Kee on Apr 4, 2004 1:32:55 GMT -5
I am pleased that you are reading my humble contributions to this thread. The fact that you have read them and they are on your mind means that perhaps my message and point is getting through. You mean the message that some Christians must resort to irrational and false comparisons, conclusions, and/or sometimes accusations to shield their beliefs?? I've seen this kind of leap many times and so it's not too hard to spot, even when skimming. Hate is such a strong word, and in my view... can be a destructive emotion in and of itself. You say you are set free and yet from your own words, you still do carry it.
|
|
|
Post by Traffic Demon on Apr 4, 2004 4:15:58 GMT -5
Nicodemus - "Well, TD, until your teachings come home to roost in your own family - and until you see what the results of a diminished faith in God can do, you will not believe, nor will you repent."Yet you have still not demonstrated that my posts would in any way lead to a diminished faith by any individual. "If they have deeper meanings - why does he not lay them out for our spiritual edification. You say that he has found the deeper meanings behind the symbols and the myths."From the Interpretation of Genesis - Why thread, which you apparently haven't read yet: There you go. "By debunking someone's faith in something, without offering an alternative only leaves people an empty shell and uninstructed."But I have offered that alternative. "I am just so saddened that Traffic does not see the dangers he is presented"What dangers? Neither you nor anybody else has demonstrated any way in which my posts could possibly cause somebody to stumble in their faith! "so I'm interested in how he is going to produce faith out of unbelief."What unbelief? SJudy - "'If it were to play out in their mind, it would not be because of my demonstration of the accuracy of evolutionary theory, but because they have, like you, failed to fully read and comprehend what I have written on the subject.' So you would feel no responsibility if your thoughts on the matter caused one to stumble?"Again, you still haven't demonstrated that my posts even could cause an individual to stumble, making your hypothetical irrelevant to the discussion. "What if it could be shown that just such a thing could..and did occur?"Say "what if" all you want, but unless you demonstrate that my posts actually could or have done such a thing, they have no bearing on the discussion. "Perhaps not with your particular posts ...but others..similar in content that undermine the faith of one?"So, now even the posts of another individual are my responsibility? Yeah, you're working from a logical position now. Try again. Oh really, would you care to show in which post(s) I have ever made such statements? Of course you wouldn't, because I have not made them. "Not your responsibility if I stumbled..walked away, right?"That would certainly not be my responsibility unless you were able to demonstrate that my posts were the cause of your stumbling. Problem is, you haven't done that yet. "'By interpreting Scripture literally whenever possible, adopting a non-literal interpretation only when the physical evidence or another pkmtyolpage of Scripture would contradict a literal interpretation.'
And who determines what is literal and what is not? You?"No, examination of the physical evidence as well as Scripture is what determines which pkmtyolpages should be interpreted literally and which should not. As a supernatural event, the occurrence of Christ's resurrection is not a matter for scientific investigation, but decided by the faith of the individual. [SJudy has never been a proponent of evolution] "Because it simply is not logical to me."Why not? "What is the point of knowing the age [of the Earth]?"To better understand the truth of God's Creation. [SJudy does not acknowledge evolutionary theory as accurate] "Because I don't think God is an ameoba either..and we were made in His image"Yet Scripture does not necessitate that we were created in His physical image. If one interprets creation in God's image as referring to His spiritual likeness, science and Scripture co-exist without conflict. k8reader - "Is evolutionary theory the only thing you talk about?"Not at all. "Now, while you would not 'change your behavior' if your debates caused a brother or sister to stumble, I would change mine."You have yet to answer my question as to how demonstrating the truth of God's Creation coul possibly cause a brother or sister stumble, and until you do, your hypothetical has no bearing on the validity of evolutionary theory, or any other scientific principle. "Then your desire is to prove your brothers and sisters wrong. They believe as they do because they believe Gods Word to be completely literally true."Once again, belief supported by evidence is logic, belief in the absence of evidence is faith, but belief in spite of evidence is delusion. Those who believe the fantastic events of Gen. 1-11 to be literal do so only through ignorance or denial of the physical evidence that contradicts that belief. They can believe all they like, but no amount of belief is going to make the reality of the physical evidence disappear. "Their belief honors God."Their belief in the truth of God's Word certainly honors God, but their support of that which has been shown to be a lie certainly does not. "Your evidence means nothing to me."What reason do you have for so casually disregarding it? "But, please remember we literal believers in the Bible really don't need or want to earn any credibility."That's a good thing, because you don't have any credibility. Your claims are falsified at every turn by centuries of physical evidence. Kee - "Wow.... now there's a statement grounded in integrity. Traf... what's the deal? Why are so many Christians these days willing to compromise this? Are they that insecure? That weak in their faith?"I honestly don't know whether it's insecurity, ignorance, stubbornness, or outright fear on their part. Any way you slice it, it looks pretty ugly. As always, thank you for your support. Once again, the young Earth creationists are all bark and no bite. Faced with the fact that they have no physical evidence to support their claims, claims which are instead contradicted by the physical evidence at every turn, they instead resort to attacking the faith of their opponents. When it comes to my faith, if you're going to bring it, you better bring it hard. I've been worked over more, and far better, than you've been able to do, and both my faith and support for the presently accepted scientific models have only grown stronger. Anyone can make the utterly baseless claims you've thrown at me, but if you want to really impress somebody, try putting up some evidence for the model you are attacking me for speaking against. I've shown the evidence for the presently accepted scientific models time and time again, and I'll be happy to present it as often as it takes to convince those who speak against those models. If you would convince me, or anybody else that the young Earth creationist model has even a grain of truth to it, try putting up some evidence for it. The only plausible explanation for the complete failure of supporters of that model to do so, the reason they resort to attacks on the faith of those who oppose them, is that they have no evidence to present. If you want to discuss the validity of evolutionary theory, do so through the physical evidence, or don't bother trying. --DX TD And I'm all outta bubble gum
|
|
|
Post by Nicodemus on Apr 4, 2004 7:51:25 GMT -5
In your brief analysis above - you indicated that these creation myths demonstrate man's sinfulness. What sinfulness?
Where did it come from?
We are created in the image and likeness of God - or is that figurative also?
There is no sin. Where do you find sin in the Bible?
|
|
|
Post by Shirley on Apr 4, 2004 8:16:40 GMT -5
I did..you choose not to believe me.
I never said you were responsible for the posts of others. However, your logic, style and reasoning is the same as others who did cause me to stumble..and fall. Why do you feel it necessary to hammer at your brothers and sisters...until they "get it" the way you do? I'm telling you, from my own experience what can happen.
I will not stumble again. Perhaps another will..as I did. A thought occurs to me. Do you work in law enforcement? You seem to have the same attitude of some police officers I know. After my daughter was threatened with a crow bar..but not actually hit with it, we were told that when the man came and inflicted some actual harm, they would consider arresting him. You seem to have that same thing..until someone is hurt by your insistance that you be right, and the rest of us are fools..you won't even consider the harm that may be done.
The creation of the earth..of the universe was also a supernatural event. Yet, you insist science can prove we came from the ooze. It too is a matter of faith of the individual. Prove to me..the resurrection. You cannot have it both ways. I can, with science prove that a man does not resurrect himself after three days. Doesn't happen. Check the graveyards..
One would have to of necessity twist the scriptures to support the rest of your (scientist's)theory. It states in His image, in His likeness. It also states He formed them out of the dust of the earth. How can that be a parable for a pool of ooze, struck perhaps by lightning, became an amoeba that eventually became a man?
Actually...it is none of the above. Not insecurity, not ignorance, not stubbornness, nor fear. (God does not send a spirit of fear) It is simply faith. And a knowing that this is correct and right and true for us.
"For by their fruits ye shall know them."
|
|
|
Post by masarap on Apr 4, 2004 11:27:55 GMT -5
Satan came to Jesus with Scripture, in fact he knows the Word of God well... Remember in the desert, he tried to "help" Jesus when he was hungry?.... Satan believes in Jesus and believes that God is one. Satan comes as a angel of "light" to minister.....
Sounds to me like hes a christian!! Why should we judge him if he just "thinks" a little different? Maybe he just had a bad childhood!! He probably means well!!! You people that attack him are unloving and evil!!!! LEAVE SATAN ALONE!!!!! Masara p
|
|
|
Post by Kee on Apr 4, 2004 11:58:42 GMT -5
Satan came to Jesus with Scripture, in fact he knows the Word of God well... Remember in the desert, he tried to "help" Jesus when he was hungry?.... Satan believes in Jesus and believes that God is one. Satan comes as a angel of "light" to minister.....
Sounds to me like hes a christian!! Why should we judge him if he just "thinks" a little different? Maybe he just had a bad childhood!! He probably means well!!! You people that attack him are unloving and evil!!!! LEAVE SATAN ALONE!!!!! Masara p You create YOUR own reality through your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. I just love it when you Christians come out here and spin your own reality. You see what you are prepared to see, and some of you are indeed the very best examples of how reality creation is weaved within one's mind I've ever watched actually. Fascinating....
|
|
|
Post by Kee on Apr 4, 2004 12:30:01 GMT -5
Actually...it is none of the above. Not insecurity, not ignorance, not stubbornness, nor fear. (God does not send a spirit of fear) It is simply faith. And a knowing that this is correct and right and true for us.Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Interesting how arguments called "faith" are SO often about things that ARE seen and have been observed in our universe. Such positions are quite the antithesis of what faith means.
|
|
|
Post by Nicodemus on Apr 4, 2004 12:49:04 GMT -5
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Interesting how arguments called "faith" are SO often about things that ARE seen and have been observed in our universe. Such positions are quite the antithesis of what faith means.??? You've lost me. But then, I don't suppose that it that difficult.
|
|
|
Post by babysis on Apr 4, 2004 13:07:36 GMT -5
I think what kee is trying to say is that we can see creation all around us, we can find out things about creation. We don't need faith to know about creation because it is something that can be seen. FAITH is needed for things that are not seen.
|
|
|
Post by k8reader on Apr 4, 2004 13:08:34 GMT -5
k8reader - "Is evolutionary theory the only thing you talk about?"Not at all. Excellent! What is your favorite Psalm? We read the 22nd today in church. That one is pretty awesome. But I think my favorite is the 103rd! You're right, whether or not your debate causes a brother or sister to stumble has no bearing on evolutionary theory or science. It has EVERYTHING to do with why I will not debate the issue with you. This is the best place to leave it, in my opinion! Again, with just a little editing, you are encouraging your brothers and sisters! Not a what, but a Who, the Holy Spirit! I used to have a view of theistic evolution as you know, but it just kept crumbling away. I think we have talked about this before. Scientific facts change. Scientific "truths" humans used to hold in the past, are now false. As knowledge and technology increase, we find that what we used to believe (in science) was wrong. If you have studied the history of scientific thought, you know that this is the very nature of science. At the same time, Jesus does not change. The more time I spend with Him, the more I trust Him, and see His unchanging nature. So, I was placing my trust in that, which by nature, changes; rather then in Him, Who by nature, remains the same. I don't know how old you are traffic. But, I know you must not be the parent of teenagers, because you would know what it's like for people to think you have no credibility! My kids think I fell off the truck last year, and could not possibly understand anything they feel! So, having no credibility is just an every day fact of life for me! Debate won't give it to me either! That usually just makes things worse. I guess that means I'm incredible! Love ya Traffic!
|
|