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Post by Traffic Demon on Apr 2, 2004 7:52:41 GMT -5
k8reader - "What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble?"
How would they, when nothing about evolutionary theory is in any way inconsistent with a Christian belief system? You want to talk about others causing brothers or sisters to stumble, look at the proponents of the young Earth creationist model, who are seemingly incapable of conducting an honest discussion of the topic. Never once have they provided even the slightest shred of evidence to support their claims, instead resorting to attacking the faith of their opponents and denying the existence of evidence that has been presented countless times. The entire young Earth creationist position can be summed up as "We believe the last two hundred years of science to be completely wrong, and even though we have nothing to support that claim, you should too." If you're worried about these discussions causing somebody to stumble, start with the young Earth creationists who are holding desperately to their lie because they are too ignorant or unwilling to consider the possibility that they might be wrong.
--Live. Love. Traf.
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Post by kingsdaughter on Apr 2, 2004 12:02:31 GMT -5
k8reader - "What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble?"How would they, when nothing about evolutionary theory is in any way inconsistent with a Christian belief system? You want to talk about others causing brothers or sisters to stumble, look at the proponents of the young Earth creationist model, who are seemingly incapable of conducting an honest discussion of the topic. Never once have they provided even the slightest shred of evidence to support their claims, instead resorting to attacking the faith of their opponents and denying the existence of evidence that has been presented countless times. The entire young Earth creationist position can be summed up as "We believe the last two hundred years of science to be completely wrong, and even though we have nothing to support that claim, you should too." If you're worried about these discussions causing somebody to stumble, start with the young Earth creationists who are holding desperately to their lie because they are too ignorant or unwilling to consider the possibility that they might be wrong. --Live. Love. Traf. Tell me how do you expect us to prove a supernatural occurance? ysic Pam |
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Post by Traffic Demon on Apr 2, 2004 16:16:43 GMT -5
kingsdaughter - "Tell me how do you expect us to prove a supernatural occurance?"
I'm not sure what relevance your question has. The claims of the young Earth creationists, that the Earth and universe are 6,007 years old, that the Earth has experienced a global flood within that time, that all species are specially created instead of descended from a common ancestry, and that humans once lived for 200+ years have nothing to do with the supernatural. Each one can be either demonstrated or falsified through the physical evidence, with no need for supernatural intervention. It is through that physical evidence that each of those claims has been shown to be entirely false.
--Traf Daddy
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Post by k8reader on Apr 2, 2004 16:42:31 GMT -5
k8reader - "What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble?"How would they, when nothing about evolutionary theory is in any way inconsistent with a Christian belief system? You want to talk about others causing brothers or sisters to stumble, look at the proponents of the young Earth creationist model, who are seemingly incapable of conducting an honest discussion of the topic. Never once have they provided even the slightest shred of evidence to support their claims, instead resorting to attacking the faith of their opponents and denying the existence of evidence that has been presented countless times. The entire young Earth creationist position can be summed up as "We believe the last two hundred years of science to be completely wrong, and even though we have nothing to support that claim, you should too." If you're worried about these discussions causing somebody to stumble, start with the young Earth creationists who are holding desperately to their lie because they are too ignorant or unwilling to consider the possibility that they might be wrong. --Live. Love. Traf. You didn't answer my question TD. So, I'll ask again. What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble? |
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Post by Traffic Demon on Apr 2, 2004 17:42:44 GMT -5
k8reader - "What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble?"
What bearing does your hypothetical have on the discussion? How would my demonstration of the truth of God's Creation cause someone to stumble? Why aren't you instead concerned about the stumblings that are directly caused by those who support the blatant lie that is the young Earth creationist model?
--El Traffico Diablo
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Post by silveradofarmgirl on Apr 2, 2004 22:56:18 GMT -5
Interesting reading.... I havent been here for months yet the arguments and debates are still nearly the same.
I have a question. it says:
"And God said, Let the Earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the Earth after his kind: and it was so (Genesis 1:24)."
Ok. Everyone knows that a horse and a donkey are 2 SEPERATE, DISTINCT species of animal.
A horse is Equus caballus.
A donkey is Equus asinus.
A male donkey mated with a female donkey produces- a donkey!
A male horse and a female horse produces- a horse!
Yes... when a male donkey and a female horse are mated, they produce... a mule! (Equus mulus)
To further confuse the issue... a male horse mated with a female donkey produces... a Hinny! (Equus hinnus)
Ok... so whats the deal? Are common barnyard animals supporting scientific theory that there cannot be a God, because they are hybridizing?
Nope. I think you need to carefully read the verse. It did NOT say that "each species would reproduce after their own kind". what the verse said exactly is:
Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good."
No where in there did they say "reproduce". I think that this might be being used out of context.
Its not a bunch of scientific brew-ha. Its simple when you break it all down.
God Created everything, past, present and future. Don't you think a force as powerful enough to create everything would think ahead?
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Post by Traffic Demon on Apr 3, 2004 1:49:47 GMT -5
silveradofarmgirl - "Are common barnyard animals supporting scientific theory that there cannot be a God, because they are hybridizing?"
While I appreciate your support of science, you have one thing very wrong. No scientific principle denies God's existence, because science can neither confirm nor deny the existence of any supernatural being or phenomenon. Those barnyard animals are certainly supporting scientific theory, but are certainly not disproving God's existence.
--TDv2.0
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Post by k8reader on Apr 3, 2004 12:25:55 GMT -5
k8reader - "What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble?"What bearing does your hypothetical have on the discussion? --El Traffico Diablo It has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion, and you STILL have not answered the question. |
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 12:35:28 GMT -5
It has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion, and you STILL have not answered the question. A young believer (or earnest seeker) reads his post, and because he speaks with a modicum of intelligence, believes that he is right because of his education and background. He deduces that none of it really happened like the Bible says, and then he reads that Jesus Christ was only referring to Adam and Eve as one might refer to the Odyssey. Then it begins to dawn on this young person that Jesus isn't all that He is hyped-up to be, and since we have an interconnection with the animals - he swiftly slides into emptiness of spirit. Heck! Why try to be human if I am no different than a dog! A few years later this young person, who is older now, is sitting in prison convicted of rape and other crimes against humanity. The jurors, when questioned about this man indicated, "The reason I voted guilty is because he had absolutely no remorse. He seemed as though he actually enjoyed his crimes. This person isn't even a human! He is more like an animal! Wrong Mr. or Mrs. Juror. An animal would not do the things this person did - but when he was twelve, he rode a church bus and believed that Jesus saved him. But something or someone along the way stole his faith.#nosmileys |
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Post by Traffic Demon on Apr 3, 2004 14:13:07 GMT -5
k8reader - "It [k8reader's question "What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble?"] has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion"Not unless you can demonstrate that my demonstration of the accuracy of evolutionary theory actually has caused someone to stumble. I do not see how the presentation of any truth could be a stumbling block in one's faith. Nicodemus - "A young believer (or earnest seeker) reads his post, and because he speaks with a modicum of intelligence, believes that he is right because of his education and background."I would certainly hope not. If my statements are to be acknowledged as accurate by anybody, I would hope that they were so acknowledged for no reason other than that the evidence demonstrates their accuracy. "He deduces that none of it really happened like the Bible says"At least, not literally. "Then it begins to dawn on this young person that Jesus isn't all that He is hyped-up to be, and since we have an interconnection with the animals - he swiftly slides into emptiness of spirit."Here is where your hypothetical leaves the realm of reality, since never once in any of my posts have I claimed Jesus to be anything less than the Son of God. Such a reader would therefore not be caused to stumble by anything I have posted, but by his failure to appropriately read what I have written. "Why try to be human if I am no different than a dog!"Because as I have acknowledged in posts that you apparently have failed to read, God has imbued us with a soul, and placed expectations on our species, while other animals have neither. Certainly you're not trying to imply that any of this could be logically drawn from anything that I have posted. If you are, I suggest that you read the entirety of the Interpretation of Genesis - Why? thread. In doing so, you will see that I have never made a single statement that would condone, or even imply as logical, any of your above sequence. "But something or someone along the way stole his faith."However, that something or someone was not me, my posts, or evolutionary theory. --DX TD |
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Post by Nicodemus on Apr 3, 2004 14:23:34 GMT -5
And yet, surely you would not, or could not, categorically assure that this scenario would NOT be played out in the mind of a young person.
James said it best:
"My brethren, be not many masters [teachers], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation."
Eternity will requite every word that we speak. And if it results in another's fall, or offends one of these little ones - there will be an enormous price to pay.
As per an earlier discussion - why not just help people to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ - and save this "hobby horse" of yours for those who pay you to teach them this.
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Post by babysis on Apr 3, 2004 14:29:38 GMT -5
I was a young Christian (still am to some) when I first started to read the threads about evolution which Traffic posted on and I never once was swayed or led to believe any differenly about Jesus. I see Traffic as my brother and that he sees that what God created and what God gave us through His Word have to be consistent with each other, since both came from God. I don't see any unChristian like behavior or thoughts in that.
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Post by Shirley on Apr 3, 2004 15:19:55 GMT -5
I can see how it could. Someone's faith may be weak..for whatever reason..doesn't even have to be a baby Christian..even an old timer..who life has kicked around a bit.
They read something like that..and think..maybe it is all a lie..and so they give up on all of it..losing all hope..falling by the wayside..and hardly anyone notices..until they have truly stepped over the edge into the abyss..
Was it intended to drive one over the edge? No..I don't think so. But when it is presented as fact..that the bible is a pretty book full of figurative speeches..parables and myths..how is one to determine what parts are literal..and what parts are simply a nice fable to be told?
Perhaps the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was simply a parable..
Perhaps the need of a Saviour is a parable..
Perhaps the need to be born again is simply figurative..maybe you don't really need to believe..to be born again..
You see where this can go?
I have never been a proponent of evolution. And I do think in scientific ways..I love science..as far as it goes. Some things can be proven beyond doubt. Others cannot. How can they know that their dating methods are accurate? There are none who were there then..to say that yes..that was created on that date, 2 million years ago..
I don't pretend to know all. Do I think the earth is only 6000 years old? No, most likely not. However, I don't believe that an amoeba is part of my ancestry either.
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Post by k8reader on Apr 3, 2004 15:46:05 GMT -5
k8reader - "It [k8reader's question "What if your posts supporting evolutionary theory were to cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble?"] has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion"Not unless you can demonstrate that my demonstration of the accuracy of evolutionary theory actually has caused someone to stumble. I do not see how the presentation of any truth could be a stumbling block in one's faith. --DX TD Why do you still refuse to answer the question? What's the big deal? What would you do? How would you feel? Would your interest in persuading others change? It's just a question. What is at the root of your need to debate this issue Traffic? How many thousands of words have you typed on your position of theistic evolution? As I told you before, I happen to believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis. I won't engage in a debate with you to try and prove my position correct. Do you know why? Because it really doesn't matter to me whether you believe in the literal interpretation or theistic evolution. I do wonder; however, why it should matter to you whether or not someone believes in the literal interpretation. Why do you "need" to convince them that they are wrong? I also will not engage in debate with you because in the 14th chapter of Romans (which I posted, and you called irrelevant) Paul tell us that " Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." and if you believe that God created with evolution, then you give the authorship to God. And if I believe that God created without evolution, then I give authorship to God. Therfore we both believe unto God. Further Paul says that if we both do unto God, then we should " 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification." Look at the next pkmtyolpage: "14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died." Now again, aplied to this "discussion" 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that (it doesn't matter how God created)in itself. But if anyone regards something as un(Biblical), then for him it is (wrong). 15If your brother is distressed because of (the evolutionary position you are taking), you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your (defense of your position) destroy your brother for whom Christ died. The end of the chapter reads: ....22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. Please prayerfully consider the 14th chapter of Romans and how it applies to your position. Have you ever told your brother or sister that you think it's great that they believe in the literal interpretation? Let me make the first move. Traffic, I think it's great that you see the workmanship of God in the scientific theories you study. Isn't our God truly amazing! |
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Post by Kee on Apr 3, 2004 17:19:08 GMT -5
I really want to thank k8 and Nicodermus for needling Traffic over and over with these absurd hypotheticals... Because you know what? You remind me of how I saw the LIGHT! -- Once I realized Christians were willing to tell ANY lie -- make up the most horrendous case scenarios against any other person in another religion, or ANY other purely speculative and false scenarios they could think of to generate/create guilt and doubt (stumbling arguments for instance) , ridicule, and basically pressure someone who holds a different ideal than them to "shut up" -- well..... Once I saw what people are willing to censor, silence -- that's when my eyes were opened to just how false this belief is. It was seeing time and again people pulling stunts like this that openned the gate to TRUTH for me.... Better look to your own good intentions if you REALLY want to SEE the source of stumbling. Supporting a lie at ALL cost will never fly with people who captured the ethical fundamentals in it all, don't cha know.......  BTW,.,..... I truly thank you one and all for doing so, and even more for continuing. ;D |
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