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Post by LauraJean on Mar 4, 2005 0:43:05 GMT -5
Another question--
You say:
What exactly do you mean by this statement? --Because it sounds like you're saying some Christians don't have all their sins forgiven. Can you expand on your thoughts here? Thanks!
Blessings, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Mar 4, 2005 0:51:38 GMT -5
However, I believe that if you were to go to a place where there is currently high persecution of Christians, like in China, or Malaysia, or the Middle East, or Africa, and asked the Christians there if they believe in a "pre-tribulation" raputure, you may very well get a response like, "The tribulation is not happenning right now?" I'm glad you brought this up, Philip. Keeping in mind what was going on with Christians at the time John was on Patmos, one could argue that there has not been a time when Christians weren't being persecuted somewhere in the world, and John's words come as great comfort to those people. I believe what many call the "Tribulation" has been going on for roughly 2000 years. The numbers in Revelation (and the other eschatological texts) are symbolic, not literal. Blessings! LJ
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Post by christian on Mar 4, 2005 7:00:52 GMT -5
I'm glad you brought this up, Philip. Keeping in mind what was going on with Christians at the time John was on Patmos, one could argue that there has not been a time when Christians weren't being persecuted somewhere in the world, and John's words come as great comfort to those people. I believe what many call the "Tribulation" has been going on for roughly 2000 years. The numbers in Revelation (and the other eschatological texts) are symbolic, not literal. Blessings! LJ Ah, well you had better tell God that!
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Post by LauraJean on Mar 4, 2005 8:02:27 GMT -5
Ah, well you had better tell God that! Why? He's the one who told me! Blessings, LJ
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Post by christian on Mar 4, 2005 8:16:25 GMT -5
Are the 144,000 Messianic Jews of the end times real or symbolic? If they're symbolic, was it a man who told you, or God? And if 144,000 is a symbolic number, then what does it mean?
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Post by woodyblueeyes on Mar 4, 2005 9:31:26 GMT -5
Edited for bad writing prior:
So who decides what is literal and what is figurative?
I ask, because more than anything else I want to learn.
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Post by woodyblueeyes on Mar 4, 2005 9:49:17 GMT -5
What I don't understand in this whole "rapture" debate is how the imagery of exactly who is LEFT BEHIND got switched around. The analogy in Matthew is of Noah and his family. The righteous were left behind, not the sinners. LauraJean, consider this: Noah and his family were protected "from" the judgement. They were "raptured" if you will, by the building of the ark, and they were "removed from the hour of trial", then the judgement was given to those left. Jesus Christ will protect his children "from" the judgement, i.e. the tribulation. Revelation 3:10 states that "...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world..." I don't think there is a difference in the analogy. laurajean And this whole "secret rapture" thing makes me laugh. And the idea that there are multiple judgement days, second chances, etc. is so strange to me. Isn't Matthew 25:1-13 clear on this issue?
Now, I'm not sure about the "secret rapture". I think there will be many, MANY people that will know what happens when it does happen, but for whatever reasons, a majority will try and give many different solutions for why there are so many people gone.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Mar 4, 2005 10:28:19 GMT -5
It's interesting to read that people take Revelation as a symbolic text, yet desire to take the rest of the bible as literal. If Revelation is symbolic, then the rest of the bible must be symbolic. I don't think you can pick and choose what you wish to be symbolism and what you choose to be actual. And if the tribulation is symbolic, then the second coming must be symbolic as well. If that is so, then that wipes the New Testement out as far back as the Gospels. So the kingdom of heaven is literally a mustard seed? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing that Revelation is symbolic, but you can't just say that the whole Bible has to be 100% literal, or 100% figurative/symbolic.
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Post by christian on Mar 4, 2005 10:53:23 GMT -5
So the kingdom of heaven is literally a mustard seed? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing that Revelation is symbolic, but you can't just say that the whole Bible has to be 100% literal, or 100% figurative/symbolic. You've got a good point there, Philip! But what if there are plants, and animals, and trees, etc, in God's kingdom? I believe that God loves to surround Himself with His Creation. After all, He chose us....... Andy.
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Post by LauraJean on Mar 4, 2005 11:02:27 GMT -5
MT 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Noah and his family were protected "from" the judgement. They were "raptured" if you will, by the building of the ark, and they were "removed from the hour of trial", then the judgement was given to those left. Jesus Christ will protect his children "from" the judgement, i.e. the tribulation. Revelation 3:10 states that "...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world..." I don't think there is a difference in the analogy. Except in your rapture scenario, the people who are "left behind" are the unrighteous and in the Noah analogy the people who are "left behind" are the righteous. You say Noah and his family were "protected from" judgement, but isn't it rather that Noah and his family were judged, as were all the other people on Earth? GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.That's not what the Bible says: (emphases mine) PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 1TH 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first(Does this sound like a secret? Or like something rife with uncertainty? No!) MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.REV 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Unless you can show me where the Bible says Jesus returns twice, these pkmtyolpages can only be understood to mean that everyone --the righteous, the unrighteous, even the dead-- will know what's going on when Jesus returns. Blessings, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Mar 4, 2005 11:22:14 GMT -5
I don't think you can pick and choose what you wish to be symbolism and what you choose to be actual. Really?? Isn't that precisely what the Missionary Baptist Church does regarding its treatment of John 6:53-56 and 1 Peter 3:20-21? Or do you now believe that the bread and wine of communion are actually Jesus's body and blood, and that baptism is not merely symbolic but is actually efficacious? I don't mean to sound argumentative, (my apologies if I come across that way) but you made an error of logic that resulted in a sweeping generalization ripe for hole-poking. So I'm asking questions that may seem confrontational, for the purpose of gaining a better understanding of where you're coming from. Who knows? Maybe you or I will learn something today! Eagerly awaiting your replies, Blessings, LJ
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Post by christian on Mar 4, 2005 11:42:01 GMT -5
Laura,
Where's the physical evidence to back up the idea that the bread and the wine of the Eucharist, or Holy Communion, actually turns into the flesh and blood of Christ? In all the times I've taken it, I have never witnessed it.
Andy.
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Post by LauraJean on Mar 4, 2005 11:49:29 GMT -5
Are the 144,000 Messianic Jews of the end times real or symbolic? If they're symbolic, was it a man who told you, or God? And if 144,000 is a symbolic number, then what does it mean? The number is symbolic. The number 12 in the Bible represents governmental completeness. (12 Tribes of Israel, 12 Disciples, etc.) 12 x 12 = 144 The ancients understood 1000 to represent a large but unspesific amount. Think of a mother speaking to her child; "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times to close the door behind you." 144 x 1000 = 144,000 See? Peace, LJ
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Post by woodyblueeyes on Mar 4, 2005 12:10:44 GMT -5
My apologies. I was offering an opinion as to an analogy that was given. I can tell from the reply that my opinion was cast aside and not even considered.
I was not expecting to be attacked because of what "church" I happen to attend. If some of you are so indoctrinated that you're not willing to at least read other peoples opinions without giving them the cordiality of at least reading it without turning their opinion into ammunition, then possibly you could state that at the outset, so at least the corresponding attacks won't be a surprise.
I'll continue to read along and respect others opinions as I read them, but I'm not sure that I'm up to post anything further.
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Post by christian on Mar 4, 2005 12:13:36 GMT -5
The number is symbolic. The number 12 in the Bible represents governmental completeness. (12 Tribes of Israel, 12 Disciples, etc.) 12 x 12 = 144 The ancients understood 1000 to represent a large but unspesific amount. Think of a mother speaking to her child; "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times to close the door behind you." 144 x 1000 = 144,000 See? Peace, LJ Hmm.....I'd sure like to know where you got this from. I hope that what you're saying is scriptural. Are you doubting that God is capable of raising 144,000 Jews to preach the Gospel?
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