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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 22, 2003 16:31:12 GMT -5
Do you believe in a bodily resurection? If so when is that since revelation is already complete in your view than that resurection has already happened I have always had a problem with this one. Because resurrection implies and in fact needs a death first. That would tell me that in order to have a resurrection one must die first. But what you are talking about is living bodies going into heaven, right? No I don't think that is what the verses in 1 Thess. and 1 Cor. are referring to. I believe that we each in turn are resurrected as we die. Did that answer the question?
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 16:35:05 GMT -5
I have always had a problem with this one. Because resurrection implies and in fact needs a death first. That would tell me that in order to have a resurrection one must die first. But what you are talking about is living bodies going into heaven, right? No I don't think that is what the verses in 1 Thess. and 1 Cor. are referring to. I believe that we each in turn are resurrected as we die. Did that answer the question? then we would of all men be most misserable Christ was bodily resurrected and he promises that we will be also.
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 22, 2003 16:39:49 GMT -5
Oh yes and at the end of Revelation Satan and his followers are thrown into hell. It seems to me that he and his folllowers are still very active here on earth. Jesus overcame the world, and according to John 12:31,32 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. the devil is overcome by the blood of Jesus. And according to Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. death has no power. Also in Romans: Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. So what is left unaccomplished? What is Jesus coming back and taking people from earth for?
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 22, 2003 16:50:34 GMT -5
then we would of all men be most misserable Christ was bodily resurrected and he promises that we will be also. We would not all be miserable... John 16:6-8,13 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
1 Peter 1:7,8 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Looks to me like the God, Jesus, The Father, The Son, Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Word of God together is our joy! And yet you think men would be miserable? Jesus Christ died first then resurrected and Yes He promises that we will be also! right after we die.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 16:53:02 GMT -5
We would not all be miserable... John 16:6-8,13 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
1 Peter 1:7,8 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Looks to me like the God, Jesus, The Father, The Son, Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Word of God together is our joy! And yet you think men would be miserable? Jesus Christ died first then resurrected and Yes He promises that we will be also! right after we die. so you will not need a grave as there will be no body?
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 22, 2003 17:15:31 GMT -5
so you will not need a grave as there will be no body? I don't really consider that an important point of my entrance into eternity. I really don't think I will care one way or another. My corruptible body will be dead. I have told family members to cremate me if they want.. I will be in heaven. You see, there are Christians that were incinerated in the Nazi concentration camps.. are they bodiless forever because of it? I don't believe so. The state of our physical bodies after death is really no concern of mine. I claim the promises God gave me and will live as a servant of the King of kings and Lord of Lords for ever and ever. The Lord said that we would be saved from the SECOND death and that is the promise I find Joy in... I could care less about the first death of my physical body. I hope I am coming across as sincere.. because I really am.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 17:35:25 GMT -5
1 Thessalonians 4 :: King James Version (KJV) Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this Page See this pkmtyolpage in Previous chapter | This chapter | Next chapter
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
So you totally discount these words that speak of Christ returning with a shout? The dead in Christ rise and those that are alive rise. what trwist do you put on this? (I modified this to make it shorter and easier to read)
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Post by Shirley on Jul 22, 2003 17:37:27 GMT -5
I don't really consider that an important point of my entrance into eternity. I really don't think I will care one way or another. My corruptible body will be dead. I have told family members to cremate me if they want.. I will be in heaven. You see, there are Christians that were incinerated in the Nazi concentration camps.. are they bodiless forever because of it? I don't believe so. The state of our physical bodies after death is really no concern of mine. I claim the promises God gave me and will live as a servant of the King of kings and Lord of Lords for ever and ever. The Lord said that we would be saved from the SECOND death and that is the promise I find Joy in... I could care less about the first death of my physical body. I hope I am coming across as sincere.. because I really am. That is not what she asked. Will you need a coffin? Our present bodies are to change from corruptable into incoruptable. Not we get a whole new body. The one we have is to be remodeled. Therefore if the resurrection and change is at the moment of death, we don't need a grave, coffin, or funeral. This present body will disappear.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 17:38:41 GMT -5
It is true that our spiritual bodies will be different than our mortal bodies (able to go through walls like Jesus did) but Christ was recognisable and ate food therefore he was not just spirit. A spirit can not eat. Also Christ body was no longer in the tomb.
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 17:42:59 GMT -5
You see, there are Christians that were incinerated in the Nazi concentration camps.. are they bodiless forever because of it? I don't believe so. As SJudy said they will be remodelled into spiritual bodies but their spiritual bodies will be recognisable as the same person
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 17:48:14 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 15 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pkmtyolp the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
This corruptible body will put on incorruptability (sounds like a covering of incorruptability. mortal put on immortality the same. in other words it is the same body but changed to immortal
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 17:49:31 GMT -5
besides which it says we will not all have to die to get these immortal bodies. How does your view jive with that?
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Post by AJoyfulHeart on Jul 22, 2003 18:27:49 GMT -5
! All you may be missing is the "no tears and fountain of Living Waters" but that is by choice not because Jesus didn't finish the work He started. And what about no more pain (Revelation 21) Are you saying christians have no physical pains here on earth?
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 22, 2003 18:42:17 GMT -5
1 Thessalonians 4 :: King James Version (KJV) Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this Page See this pkmtyolpage in Previous chapter | This chapter | Next chapter 1 Thessalonians 4 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. So you totally discount these words that speak of Christ returning with a shout? The dead in Christ rise and those that are alive rise. what trwist do you put on this? (I modified this to make it shorter and easier to read) I don't twist it at all, nor do I discount it. I believe every word is true. I also believe that Jesus came back with a shout and that the dead in Christ rose and those that are alive rise. Notice that the dead are said to rise but the living are "caught up in the clouds" as when John was caught up in spirit on the Lord's day. The disciples were caught up in spirit, I am caught up in spirit. This set of verses was meant to comfort those who had loved ones die. The Thessalonians did have some serious concerns which are addressed here. According to historical documents, the Thessalonian church was comprised primarily of Gentile converts from the pagan cults of Dionysus, Zeus, Asclepius, Aphrodite, Demeter, and perhaps most important, the cult of Cabirus. They were converts from a social and religious milieu in which gods and demons were understood to have control over virtually all aspects of life. Paul selects his terminology for purposes of revealing continuities and discontinuities with their pagan past so as to demonstrate“how the totality of their existence (note the unusual stress in 1 Thess 5.23 on `spirit and soul and body') has been transformed through the death of Christ into a new living relationship with him--whether awake or asleep (1 Thess 5.10).” That Paul believed he and many of his contemporaries would be alive at the parousia is evident by the somewhat emphatic first person plural construction employed here (hèmeis...ou mè phthasòmen). Had Paul wished to exclude himself from such a view, he could have used the third person construction. Paul believes that he and many of the Thessalonian Christians will see the coming of the Lord. And because Jesus told them He would. If Jesus gave that impression to the disciples it must have come to pkmtyolp.. My God does not lie!
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 22, 2003 18:49:02 GMT -5
That is not what she asked. Will you need a coffin? Our present bodies are to change from corruptable into incoruptable. Not we get a whole new body. The one we have is to be remodeled. Therefore if the resurrection and change is at the moment of death, we don't need a grave, coffin, or funeral. This present body will disappear. I understand.. and I am saying that I don't see how our bodies have anything to do with anything... the whole human body is corruptible. If it were to be changed to incorruptible it would have to be gone altogether. Only God knows this, but as I said before... those that do not have bodies that are still intact must still be able to become incorruptible so the fact that our bodies will not be on earth after us being changed is not exactly accurate. I think Jesus' body was gone as a sign that indeed He had resurrected but I do not think it is neccesary for our bodies to be "reconstructed" in order to be resurrected. Jesus also appeared to Mary and she thought He was a gardener... She did not recognize Him even with His body.. this implicates a different kind of change than you are speaking of. Mary (sister of Lazarus) told Jesus that Lazarus had been dead for days and that he stinketh... He was rotting.. and yet he was raised without being rotten... From dust to dust.....
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