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Post by trentroy on Aug 16, 2003 9:48:52 GMT -5
Semper, Hi again ;D I have a quick question. This man of lawlessness sets himself up in God's temple... Is that the Physical temple in Jerusalem or our bodies which are temples? And if you say physical temple in Jerusalem... There currently isn't one. Where is the scripture to support one being built again after the time of the disciples? Thanks.. The jews in Israel are already working on it, possibly have already started building the temple (modular style) at a different location to be moved as soon as they can do it. It will be a physical temple, and in the same dimensions as described in the bible. I can't give the scripture, as usual, my brain has that memory problem thing, but it is specifically listed in the OT, the exact layout is perfectly described. That's why the Israelites have been looking for that perfect red heiffer for so long, that's to be the first sacrifice at the new temple. So far, all the "perfect, unblemished red heiffers" they've found, have developed blemishes upon reaching adulthood. Another requirement for the construction of the temple and the first sacrifice is to have remnants from all 12 tribes present. They have not as yet located one of them, at least not as far as I know. Actually, I did have notes with specific scriptural references, but being that I'm also absent minded, I lost them.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 16, 2003 13:08:01 GMT -5
The jews in Israel are already working on it, possibly have already started building the temple (modular style) at a different location to be moved as soon as they can do it. It will be a physical temple, and in the same dimensions as described in the bible. I can't give the scripture, as usual, my brain has that memory problem thing, but it is specifically listed in the OT, the exact layout is perfectly described. That's why the Israelites have been looking for that perfect red heiffer for so long, that's to be the first sacrifice at the new temple. So far, all the "perfect, unblemished red heiffers" they've found, have developed blemishes upon reaching adulthood. Another requirement for the construction of the temple and the first sacrifice is to have remnants from all 12 tribes present. They have not as yet located one of them, at least not as far as I know. Actually, I did have notes with specific scriptural references, but being that I'm also absent minded, I lost them. Trentroy, I am glad that you shared your opinion and understanding. I also know that there is no such verse or pkmtyolpage that states those things. If you do locate the one you are thinking of please share it with me. There is no "third" temple mentioned in the OT at all... EVER! Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 16, 2003 13:42:03 GMT -5
What are the words there? -measure Why? To get the pattern for the next one. All the holy things -the pattern is given first -as in measurements. To do this to a temple that was already standing makes no sense as that would have been done before it was built. rise and measure Compare that job to what happens in Zec. 2. v. 2 to measure v. 4 shall be inhabited measure -then item shall be not is already Same for past temples and holy things such as items used in the temple -also the ark of the covenant. pattern is given first -the measurement time If John had written the Apocalypse AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem then there was no temple to measure. If John had written the Apocalypse BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem then your view might make sense. Assuming that the book of Revelation was written before 70AD, then the measuring of the temple makes sense and it is being measured for the purpose of comparison with the temple described later in Revelation.. the living temple not made with human hands. Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. Mar 15:29 And they that pkmtyolped by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, 1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are. There is no future PHYSICAL temple mentioned in the New Testament nor is there one mentioned in the Old Testament.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 16, 2003 14:06:38 GMT -5
Have you looked at Jer. 50-51? 50 v. 20 in those days in that time v. 28 the vengeance of His temple them that flee from Babylon Last time -people didn't flee not even Daniel so what time is this speaking of? The Jews must flee Babylon at the time of its destruction and they are declaring the vengeance of the temple 51:11 In Daniel 9 - Daniel was inquiring as to God's sanctuary -that is why I believe Gabriel told the coming things as to the parts that he did. Started with the building of the temple then the Messiah cut off -died for our sins -He had no sin then the city and the holy sanctuary get destroyed then a covenant gets signed and the sanctuary area is desolated again Vin, If the prophecy in Jeremiah is still future how do you explain this: BABYLON 1. Walls were fifteen miles square, three hundred fifty feet high, eighty-seven feet thick. When Jeremiah (chapters 50 and 51) and Isaiah (21:8; 13:1-5) prophesied of Babylon's utter destruction, Babylon was at the height of her glory. Daniel (5:20-23) tells us that Babylon was destroyed because of its pride, idolatry, wickedness, and defiance of God. 2. Isaiah (45:1) even went so far as to tell the name of the conqueror some 200 years before his birth. Cyrus began his march with a limited number of men, but gained from all sides as he progressed toward Babylon. Isaiah (13:4,5) foretold this. 3. The walls could not be stormed, so a long siege was begun. Jeremiah (51:30) prophesied the mighty Babylonians would refuse to come out and fight. It was fulfilled. 4. Cyrus devised a plan -- divert the river in another direction and allow his army to march under the wall by way of the dried up river bottom. Isaiah (44:27) and Jeremiah (50:38; 51:36) both prophesied of this method. 5. Cyrus selected a night which climaxed a great feast of the Babylonians to attack. The Babylonians were drunk and taken by complete surprise. Jer. 50:24; 51:39,57. 6. It was at this time that Belshazzar beheld the writing on the wall and called Daniel to interpret it. Daniel 5:1-31. 7. Babylon continues to this day as a living testimony to the prophecies. Babylon lies in a pile of dust. the Arab will not remain on the ruins after dark. Isaiah (13:20-22) continues to be fulfilled. One can only stand in awe and amazement when he examines the historic accounts of the fulfillment of the prophecies of long ago. " On the summit of the hill are immense fragment of brickwork, of no determinate figures, tumbled together, and converted into vitrified pkmtyolmes. Some of these huge fragments measure twelve feet in height by twenty four in circumference; these fragments have been entirely preserved, while every thing else is crumbled to dust because they have been exposed to the action of the fircest fire; they are completely molten." (Archibald Alexander.) 8. In the December, 1938, issue of the National Geographic Magazine, Vol. 74, Number 6, page 731, there is a very striking picture which is entitled, "Babylon, Once a World Center of Power and Glory, is now a Pile of dust and broken walls." The short paragraph under the picture gives us a wonderful confirmation of the scriptures: " Daniel knew this wicked city, so did Abraham. Here proud Nebuchadnezzar built his palace--before he was humbled to eat gpkmtyolr with the wild asses. Here came Alexander the Great, to die. Here Belshazzar held that famous feast where 'they drank from golden vessels, as the Book of Truth records,' when the Hand came and wrote on the wall. Now the trains for Aasra whistle past on the track in the foreground, but there seems little to stop for. The Bible prophesies of its utter ruin have all come true." 9. A quote from Mark Hopkins should make any truthful person stop and consider all of these things: " How strange that all these cities and nations have perished. No voice could be more eloquent than that of those ruined cities and desolate kingdoms, testifying how fearful a thing it is to fall under the displeasure of God, and how certainly he will execute all his threatening." (Evidence of Christianity.) 10. Roberson and Trice has the following to say about the lack of inhabitants and the desolation: " In fall and winter Babylon is dry and a 'desert of sand,' but in spring and summer it is a marsh, a 'wilderness of the sea.' The innumerable canals which once crossed the rich allivial plains of Babylonia, bringing life and joy and industry to every village and field, are now choked up with rubbish and earth." (Bible versus Modernism.) SourceMost historians and biblical scholars would agree that this was fulfilled so acurately that it is used by the secular world to say that Jeremiah was written AFTER the fact and used by Christians to PROVE the Bible is inerrant. In fact, just recently Saddam Hussein tried to rebuild Babylon and it was destroyed by an US airstrike. If the Bible is true.. Which it is.. then it will be FOREVER desolate. And about Daniel 9 I think you are seperating two instances when in reality it is speaking of the same thing. The destruction of the temple is the same as the next reference to the destruction of the temple. There is not two destructions of two different temples in two different milleniums in Daniel 9.
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Kathy
Junior Member
Take no man's opinion, study God's Word for yourself.
Posts: 99
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Post by Kathy on Aug 16, 2003 15:08:33 GMT -5
The Abomination of Desolation
Something I haven't heard mentioned as a possibality for the AoD: I can think of no greater abomination than the possibality of a third temple being built and restarting the "daily sacrafice" as this would be the ulitmate sin before God, the total rejection of Christ!
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Post by trentroy on Aug 16, 2003 15:42:44 GMT -5
Trentroy, I am glad that you shared your opinion and understanding. I also know that there is no such verse or pkmtyolpage that states those things. If you do locate the one you are thinking of please share it with me. There is no "third" temple mentioned in the OT at all... EVER! Thanks for sharing your thoughts though. Obviously, as Vinsight4u pointed out, I am not wrong, you just interpret the scriptures differently. Also, Babylon has never been desolate, as it states in Isaiah. It has been destroyed, but people have always been there. Isaiah states quite specifically that no one will be able to live there, ever again. That has not happened. Actually, it kinda sounds like the desolation could be nuclear, as nothing will grow or live there. Vinsight4u, thank you very much, my memory is a fragile thing, I remember events, but not where I read them.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 16, 2003 18:17:14 GMT -5
The Abomination of Desolation Something I haven't heard mentioned as a possibality for the AoD: I can think of no greater abomination than the possibality of a third temple being built and restarting the "daily sacrafice" as this would be the ulitmate sin before God, the total rejection of Christ! Very Good Point!!! This did happen in 30ish AD when our ultimate sacrifice was given and the Jews kept on sacrificing... It was an abomination and showed the state of the chosen nation. Which is why Jerusalem was destoryed in 70AD. Why does it have to happen again?
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Post by trentroy on Aug 17, 2003 10:29:05 GMT -5
You're welcome trentroy. So you too are telling people the beast will come Iraq? Actually, I think the beast may not be an Iraqi, he may have taken power in Iraq, or conquered Iraq, and no, I'm not saying it's Bush. The whole Iraq thing is not over yet, I'm waiting to see who takes power over there when the U.S. leaves. Just more conjecture, but we'll know when the AC is in power, I don't think he'll fool many christians.
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 17, 2003 11:53:03 GMT -5
Actually, I think the beast may not be an Iraqi, he may have taken power in Iraq, or conquered Iraq, and no, I'm not saying it's Bush. The whole Iraq thing is not over yet, I'm waiting to see who takes power over there when the U.S. leaves. Just more conjecture, but we'll know when the AC is in power, I don't think he'll fool many christians. The bible says that he will deceive the very elect in some situations but those that are right with God and study scripture should be able to tell. We are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
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Post by trentroy on Aug 20, 2003 8:24:24 GMT -5
Do you two see the vile person in Daniel 11:21 as the beast? Thus we can just back up verse by verse to v. 14 as to what to expect before he arrives? thus he will stand up in the same location as the one that rules ahead of him - the raiser of taxes then v. 21 -and in his estate -thus same place shall stand up a vile person Sounds like the beast to me. I have an idea that may sound off the wall, but here goes. Please remember this is not my theory, it's just an idea that's been rolling around in my head. In Daniel (I'm not at home so can't do quotes right now), it describes the 4 beasts (countries), and the 4th beast is described as made of iron, eating everything in it's path, w/10 horns, the 11th being the antichrist (maybe), then the 11th gets rid of 3 of the 10. I am really bad with geography, and haven't had time to look at a map, but the 4th beast reminds me of Islam. I know many think this will be the E.U., but for some reason it reminds me of the nations of islam, possibly because they are going thru Africa and killing everyone in their path, especially christians. They are taking over Africa, and they won't stop there. I've been thinking that all these muslim countries may form a coalition, appoint someone as their head (11th horn), that 3 of these countries will oppose the 11th horn, and get demolished. Okay, go ahead, I know it's kinda far fetched, but wanted someone else to tell me I'm nuts.
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 20, 2003 19:26:37 GMT -5
Sounds like the beast to me. I have an idea that may sound off the wall, but here goes. Please remember this is not my theory, it's just an idea that's been rolling around in my head. In Daniel (I'm not at home so can't do quotes right now), it describes the 4 beasts (countries), and the 4th beast is described as made of iron, eating everything in it's path, w/10 horns, the 11th being the antichrist (maybe), then the 11th gets rid of 3 of the 10. I am really bad with geography, and haven't had time to look at a map, but the 4th beast reminds me of Islam. I know many think this will be the E.U., but for some reason it reminds me of the nations of islam, possibly because they are going thru Africa and killing everyone in their path, especially christians. They are taking over Africa, and they won't stop there. I've been thinking that all these muslim countries may form a coalition, appoint someone as their head (11th horn), that 3 of these countries will oppose the 11th horn, and get demolished. Okay, go ahead, I know it's kinda far fetched, but wanted someone else to tell me I'm nuts. I have heard this theory as well. I have heard EU or revived Roman Empire and also a federation of Muslim nations. I think Perry Stone has a pretty good argument that it will be Muslim Nations. I am not sure at this point. I just keep my eyes open for a grouping of countries that fits the bill and then look for a charismatic leader to spring up from that.
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Post by trentroy on Aug 28, 2003 19:00:53 GMT -5
I don't see how it makes sense that the beast will pluck up 3 of the 10 horns as why would he need to do that? Rev. 17 tells us they -the ten give their kingdom to him thus we can't end up with just 7 since 3 are plucked up by the roots and 10 give their kingdom to him makes 13 as I see it shown in Daniel 7 Daniel saw a fourth beast two times and thus it could have a different number of total horns each time. Daniel 7:8 in this horn eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking great things I beheld till - so means this little horn time is ending till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit the books were opened then another vison time of the little horn v. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. the rest of the beasts - means the ten horns had their dominion taken away yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time the little horn is stated as -diverse from the other horns -means not from their area of the world I had thought I had this Daniel thing a little bit figured out and then you go and confuse me. Okay, 10 horns, the little horn yanks out 3 of them (gets mad cause they don't agree with him on something-that'll learn em), then we have 7. The problem is I thought we already had 10 when the little one shows up (11), of course that would make 8. So we're still stuck with the wrong number. And if the little horn is diverse, what country are you thinking? See, I get lost between some of the old names of countries, and what they are called now. Also, Greece keeps getting mentioned, and I never hear anything about Greece lately. They're pretty quiet and not very ambitious, as far as takeovers and such. Not exactly a world power. See how confused I am?
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Post by trentroy on Aug 31, 2003 19:03:47 GMT -5
Vin, you're really good at this. I don't have much time right now, but I'm very impressed with the robbers being Palestinians. Never occured to me, yet it makes perfect sense.
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Post by trentroy on Sept 2, 2003 18:05:20 GMT -5
Thanks for looking at what I wrote. I want what I write to be so clear to as you put it -make perfect sense. So are you also thinking the vile person will be from Iraq or at least attack Israel from the east? If so, maybe you can help others see things in the verses that lead in that direction. I do think the AC will come out of Iraq, but not necessarily be an Iraqi. He may be put in a leadership position in Iraq, at least that's my new theory. I'm waiting to see who's gonna take over in Iraq after we get out. Could even be the EU who takes over, who knows? Whoever he is, I'm pretty sure he's gonna attack Israel eventually, but don't know if that would be before or after the peace treaty. What's your theory on the U.S. during the trib? I don't see us mentioned anywhere. I don't know how, but I don't think we will be a world power anymore. I think something horrific will happen to the U.S.
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Post by parousia70 on Sept 4, 2003 13:39:23 GMT -5
I just don't see how all this fits history yet. Some say that it all over, yet certain parts don't seem to have a historical past. Absense of Evidence is not Evidence of Absense.
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