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Post by MorningStar on Dec 10, 2003 21:34:51 GMT -5
I saw this on a zen/buddhist journal and wanted to share. URL: www.livejournal.com/community/zen_within/177117.html Living in the South, surrounded by Christians, I'm reminded constantly of the reasons why theistic religion is unacceptable for me on both intellectual and moral grounds. The anthropomorphic "God" seems to be simply an imaginary friend or parent, something for the ego to aim its prayers at. (It seems to me that religious debates are arguments over who has the best imaginary friend.) But, temporarily setting rationalism aside, if we assume that there is such a thing as "God", how does it logically follow that he/she/it merits our worship and obedience? Ask a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew, why seemingly harmless behavior is forbidden, and the answer will be "because God forbids it." But, if "God" is an existential being, just bigger and more powerful than us, then unquestioning obedience to his/her/its whims is nothing other than supernatural fascism, a cowardly pandering to the bully. This is why theistic religion is essentially amoral - devotees are taught not to act upon their assessment of what is right or wrong, but rather to follow the orders of God/Allah/the voices in one's head. The imperative is not to do what is right because it is right, but rather to do what the deity says in order to obtain reward and avoid punishment. It is a way of being that is entirely self-serving. When a person functions in this state of childlike absence of responsibility, it is not so difficult to burn people at the stake or fly planes into buildings. Right and wrong, good and bad - you don't have to worry about these things when you're just following orders from on high. (An exception that must be noted is Hinduism; in Hindu scripture, as I understand it, Arjuna proves to the deity that he is a good man by refusing to obey the deity's commands when he believes these commands to be morally wrong.) In Zen Buddhism, there is a saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." This does not imply violence against a physical being, but rather the destruction of the ego's projections. The Buddha that you can meet on the road, that you can identify, in yourself or others, is just one more illusion, one more imaginary friend. In the end, whether there is a "God" is irrelevant; we are bigger and more powerful than mice, and there may be a being that is bigger and more powerful than us, but every being can only be a fragment of the absolute. Sustained, reasoned religious enquiry combined with meditation suggests that there is not, as the theists contend, "only one God." Rather, there can only be one anything, only one nothing.
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Post by k8reader on Dec 23, 2003 7:16:00 GMT -5
I tried very hard to just ignor this post, the way everyone else did, but I feel that it is full of misrepresentations of (at least my Christian) God. This person should absolutely move to an athiestic society! Spoken by someone who has never encountered the reality of Jesus Christ. Seemingly harmless behavior? Like what? In America, because of Christian influence, everyone is pretty much FREE to do as they please. This is a total load of sausage! Christians believe, first that there is a God who created us, and that God - because He created us, knows better then we do. Just as a child should respect the wisdom and guidance of a parent, so should we be directed by God. Not to get a reward or to avoid punishment; but because we trust in His love for us, and we know that our lives will be the most fullfilling if we follow His commands. Show me where Jesus orders us to kill people. How wonderful. I'll stick with the God who became one of us, and died on a cross for me.
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Post by heathen76 on Feb 7, 2004 13:29:47 GMT -5
I saw this on a zen/buddhist journal and wanted to share. URL: www.livejournal.com/community/zen_within/177117.html Living in the South, surrounded by Christians, I'm reminded constantly of the reasons why theistic religion is unacceptable for me on both intellectual and moral grounds. The anthropomorphic "God" seems to be simply an imaginary friend or parent, something for the ego to aim its prayers at. (It seems to me that religious debates are arguments over who has the best imaginary friend.) But, temporarily setting rationalism aside, if we assume that there is such a thing as "God", how does it logically follow that he/she/it merits our worship and obedience? Ask a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew, why seemingly harmless behavior is forbidden, and the answer will be "because God forbids it." But, if "God" is an existential being, just bigger and more powerful than us, then unquestioning obedience to his/her/its whims is nothing other than supernatural fascism, a cowardly pandering to the bully. This is why theistic religion is essentially amoral - devotees are taught not to act upon their assessment of what is right or wrong, but rather to follow the orders of God/Allah/the voices in one's head. The imperative is not to do what is right because it is right, but rather to do what the deity says in order to obtain reward and avoid punishment. It is a way of being that is entirely self-serving. When a person functions in this state of childlike absence of responsibility, it is not so difficult to burn people at the stake or fly planes into buildings. Right and wrong, good and bad - you don't have to worry about these things when you're just following orders from on high. (An exception that must be noted is Hinduism; in Hindu scripture, as I understand it, Arjuna proves to the deity that he is a good man by refusing to obey the deity's commands when he believes these commands to be morally wrong.) In Zen Buddhism, there is a saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." This does not imply violence against a physical being, but rather the destruction of the ego's projections. The Buddha that you can meet on the road, that you can identify, in yourself or others, is just one more illusion, one more imaginary friend. In the end, whether there is a "God" is irrelevant; we are bigger and more powerful than mice, and there may be a being that is bigger and more powerful than us, but every being can only be a fragment of the absolute. Sustained, reasoned religious enquiry combined with meditation suggests that there is not, as the theists contend, "only one God." Rather, there can only be one anything, only one nothing. FOOL! Don't you know that God forbids us to use the logical reasoning that he gave us?
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Post by LauraJean on Feb 7, 2004 15:16:10 GMT -5
I saw this on a zen/buddhist journal and wanted to share. Well thanks for sharing. I must admit I was absolutely amazed at the total ignorance this writer has regarding Chrisitanity. S/He got it so totally wrong that I question whether s/he has ever really listened to the folks who "surround" him/her. And the beat goes on. Sigh. Peace, LJ
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Post by LauraJean on Feb 7, 2004 15:17:29 GMT -5
FOOL! Don't you know that God forbids us to use the logical reasoning that he gave us? Hmm. My God EXPECTS us to use it. Tell me about your god? Peace, LJ
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Post by heathen76 on Feb 7, 2004 15:21:45 GMT -5
Hmm. My God EXPECTS us to use it. Tell me about your god? Peace, LJ His name is Chet. He rules over the third level of Purgatory.
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Post by LauraJean on Feb 7, 2004 23:43:49 GMT -5
His name is Chet. He rules over the third level of Purgatory. ROFLMHO!! And what does ol' Chet require of you? ;D *scratching head* Purgatory has levels? Hmm. I'll have to go check that out with the nearest Catholic!Seriously for a sec., if what the writer of MS's OP is what you and MS think Christianity really is, I can certainly see why you turned your back on it. I wouldn't want any part of that kind of thing either! Blessings! LJ
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Post by heathen76 on Feb 8, 2004 0:33:57 GMT -5
ROFLMHO!! And what does ol' Chet require of you? ;D *scratching head* Purgatory has levels? Hmm. I'll have to go check that out with the nearest Catholic!Seriously for a sec., if what the writer of MS's OP is what you and MS think Christianity really is, I can certainly see why you turned your back on it. I wouldn't want any part of that kind of thing either! Blessings! LJ I think that the post there is over-emphasizing things, but there are some elements of truth there. I know quite well what Christianity is about, as well as how it is perceived without and within.
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Post by LauraJean on Feb 8, 2004 23:43:13 GMT -5
I think that the post there is over-emphasizing things, but there are some elements of truth there. I know quite well what Christianity is about, as well as how it is perceived without and within. So what parts were over-emphasizing and what parts were accurate? As I see it, the writer totally missed the mark. There isn't one thing there that accurately describes Christianity. What you say about how it is percieved I'm sure is accurate, but if a person is going to say something is bad, shouldn't s/he make an effort to understand what it really is? And, Dear Heathen, would you indulge my inquisitiveness for a moment? What is your religious background that helps you understand how Christianity is percieved from within? I know a bit about Kee's and MS's backgrounds so I know a little about where they're coming from. Can you share? I suspect this is something you keep very private ( you NEVER talk about it) so if you want to respond privately, I respect that, and I'll never reveal what you want to keep to yourself. I'm just curious. Okay, I'm just nosey. But would you share with me? Blessings, LJ
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Post by heathen76 on Feb 9, 2004 11:15:14 GMT -5
So what parts were over-emphasizing and what parts were accurate? As I see it, the writer totally missed the mark. There isn't one thing there that accurately describes Christianity. What you say about how it is percieved I'm sure is accurate, but if a person is going to say something is bad, shouldn't s/he make an effort to understand what it really is? And, Dear Heathen, would you indulge my inquisitiveness for a moment? What is your religious background that helps you understand how Christianity is percieved from within? I know a bit about Kee's and MS's backgrounds so I know a little about where they're coming from. Can you share? I suspect this is something you keep very private ( you NEVER talk about it) so if you want to respond privately, I respect that, and I'll never reveal what you want to keep to yourself. I'm just curious. Okay, I'm just nosey. But would you share with me? Blessings, LJ Hi LJ - I'm sorry that it took so long to respond. I forgot that I had posted on this thread. As far as the OP goes, I like this section: I think that there is some real truth to this. The fundamental difference between what I believe and what Christians believe is how God is perceived. Christians believe that God was the creator of not only them, but everything else. God is perfection incarnate. God created mankind perfectly, and only through some choice did Man "fall" from grace and take on a less-than-perfect status. It is said that Man has been given freewill, but can only attain paradise by accepting Christ as a savior to clear away the "imperfect-ness". I see where whoever wrote this article is coming from. Even as a child, I never really understood the term "God-fearing". I could not understand why anyone would fear someone that is supposed to be all-loving. The ultimate "parent" if you will. Even as a child, I never thought that the Bible was meant to be taken literally at all times. The story of Genesis, for instance. Even as a young child I thought that it was a nice story meant to teach some lessons or whatever. I never thought that it was the literal account of how God created everything. I also never understood why people insisted on subscribing human emotions to God. If God could get so angry because I took his name in vain, or stole a piece of candy that he would only forgive me if I asked for forgiveness, then what was the point in worshipping such a person/entity? Why would God get angry over something that would not even anger me? Didn't that make me more forgiving than God? I'm starting to ramble. Anyway, I don't think I answered the question. However, I will answer your other question. I was born into a family that is half Catholic, and half Presbyterian. I was baptized Catholic, but attended Presbyterian church. After awhile, my mother stopped taking us to church (I think the drive was a pkmtyolhle). I used to go with a friend's family. I am not sure what the denomination was, but I think that it was probably Baptist. Actually, I never really understood the difference between the different denominations. They all seemed pretty much alike to me (slight differences). Anyhoo, as I grew older the whole "religion" thing just never resonated with me. I could see that a lot of it was just a means of controlling people and making money. I know that a lot of people draw comfort from it, and that is just fine. A lot of people use it to divide themselves from others (whether they know it or not), and for me that is not fine. Even though I didn't have a real use for religion, I always knew that there was a God. The idea of God sitting in judgement over everyone and deciding who gets to heaven and all that was never an idea that resonated with me either. I knew that it was false. As I grew older, I started to really search for what God and existence really meant to me. Eventually, I found the answer. I hope that answered your questions! Feel free to post a follow-up if I need to add anything.
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Post by masarap on Feb 9, 2004 23:30:37 GMT -5
So Heathen, do you think Jesus was lying in the Words that HE said? And heres another question... Do you think a man can change himself so that the things he once thought was truth, he now thinks a lie and vice versa? Also can a man change himself so the things that he once loved he now hates and vice versa? Just curious to what you think. I am not looking to debate you..., Masarap
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Post by heathen76 on Feb 10, 2004 9:22:57 GMT -5
So Heathen, do you think Jesus was lying in the Words that HE said? And heres another question... Do you think a man can change himself so that the things he once thought was truth, he now thinks a lie and vice versa? Also can a man change himself so the things that he once loved he now hates and vice versa? Just curious to what you think. I am not looking to debate you..., Masarap I think that there is a lot of truth in the Bible (more so in the NT than the OT), however I don't believe that everything that has been attributed to Jesus was actually done or spoken by Jesus. These gospels are just "eyewitness accounts" that may include biases from the people that wrote them/spoke them/heard them. Things may have been changed during the writing, etc. I use discernment to know what rings true and what doesn't. As for your second question, yes - anyone can change. Change is the only constant. Do I think that I will convert to Christianity? No. Why? Because I've already been down that road. Did I consider myself "born again"? No. However, I have experienced the same things that Christians say that they experience when they are "born again". It would literally be impossible for me to be "born again" in the sense that you think of. I have experienced and learned too much for me to change my mind about that. To convert to Christianity for me would be like denying a larger truth. What you have learned you cannot unlearn. I am not trying to sound as if I am "better" than christians or Christianity - this is not the case at all. I am simply in a different place than christians are. If you are happy with your beliefs and they work for you - then I am truly happy for you. I will never say that you are "wrong" because you are not. What you believe is "correct" for you. I would say the same for everyone.
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Post by MorningStar on Feb 10, 2004 10:07:09 GMT -5
all that talk about change:
Only the supremely wise and the abysmally ignorant do not change. - Confucius
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Post by k8reader on Jan 29, 2005 10:39:47 GMT -5
I think that there is some real truth to this. The fundamental difference between what I believe and what Christians believe is how God is perceived. Christians believe that God was the creator of not only them, but everything else. God is perfection incarnate. God created mankind perfectly, and only through some choice did Man "fall" from grace and take on a less-than-perfect status. It is said that Man has been given freewill, but can only attain paradise by accepting Christ as a savior to clear away the "imperfect-ness". Hey Heathen! I'm sorry I never saw this response of yours. I have always enjoyed your laid-back sense of humor, your one-line zingers, that really do make me laugh out loud! But, getting to see your more thoughtful serious side is very enjoyable. I like the fact that you can discuss your thoughts and beliefs openly and honestly. I value honestly very highly. In the above, you mentioned a difference between yours and the Christian's perception of God, yet you didn't really describe how you or how (you believe) Christians perceive God. You stated a wonderful and brief synopsis of the Christian view of the state/condition of mankind and his need for salvation, but you didn't really say how you perceive (see) God, or how Christians perceive God, and how those ways are different. You are not alone! As a child, I didn't understand fearing a God who was all loving either! There's a good reason for that! As a child, no one bothered to instruct me on what it really means to "fear God". As a child, I knew what fear meant - fear of loud noises, fear of big angry dogs, fear of getting hurt, etc. But it is inappropriate to attribute that type of fear to God. With all of the talk of Hell and sin and wrath, it is UNDERSTANDABLE to do so. But it is not accurate. First of all, the fear of God (Biblically) means a Holy reverence. The holy reverence, or fear of God comes from encountering God. If God has not "scared" you, it wouldn't make sense to fear God. Yet, if thoughts of going to Hell because of an unredeemed fallen nature do scare you, then it is possible that that 'fear' comes from the work of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, you would not fear something that you have no exposure to. I'm getting off topic. Let me use this illustration from the Prophet Isaiah to better define the fear of God. Isaiah 6
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."
4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" [/b] I just love Isaiah! This pkmtyolpage is a great representation of what it means to "fear God". It was when Isaiah was confronted with the Holy, Glorious, Perfect, presence of God Himself, that he saw himself for what he was, "a man of unclean lips". What was Isaiah's reaction to beholding God? "Woe to me, I am ruined". This was Isaiah's reaction, not God's proclamation. Isaiah saw his own imperfection in the light of God's glory. Isaiah desired to be "made clean" before God. After he was made clean, what was his reaction to the Lord? "Here am I, send me!" That was an eager, happy, God-fearing individual! Here is another example from the NT: Matthew 17 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don't be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. [/b] Again, when did the followers become "afraid"? When they encountered God's glory. But, what is God's reaction to their fear? He touched them (Jesus is the live coal that cleanses us of our sin) and told them not to be afraid. This was the same Jesus they knew and followed, but something changed when they beheld His glory. ( Matt. 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.) I fear God, because I see God. My response to seeing and fearing God, is to LOVE God. It is not possible to love out of fear, therefore the common definition of the word fear can not be applicable. Fearing God, means to say "Woe is me! I am undone!" because I am overcome with the glory of who God is. This shouldn't surprise you. As a child I thought the same thing. Now, as an adult, I see it very differently then I did as a child. As an adult, I see Genesis, the Bible and what it contains as far more then nice stories and words on a page. As an adult who has experienced more of life, I see much more wisdom, Truth and meaning in Words that used to make no sense to me. As an adult, literal interpretations make much more sense to me. Why not? Isn't love an emotion? God is described (in the Bible) as Being - Love. .......continued
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Post by k8reader on Jan 29, 2005 10:41:14 GMT -5
....Part 2 What awesome questions!!! That's why I love you Heathen! You have really summarized the conflict between our sinful nature and God's Holiness! These questions could be discussed at a length, that I dare say, would dwarf all of the evolution threads!!! Let me just ask you a couple of questions about your questions: What has God done to you, for taking His name in vain? What has God done to you, for stealing a piece of candy? What has God done to you, for not worshipping Him? What has God done to you, for not asking forgiveness? What has God done to you, for making Him angry? Hey, you are like me and my husband combined! My husband was raised Catholic and I was raised Presbyterian (sort of). We married in a RCC and now we attend a Presbyterian church (PCA, not PCUSA). The difference between the denominations are theological, and interesting and important. BUT, the unity of the body of believers crosses all barriers. For example, the bond I have with any Christian is stronger then the bond of family. In other words, I am closer to my Christian brothers and sisters then I am to my blood sisters. Not because I don't love my blood sisters as much, but we don't have the same connection to each other. I used to think the same things! I was wrong on both counts, and so are you! Here's why: 1. Certainly, there are false teachers who take advantage of people for profit, but that is more the exception then the rule. Investigate for yourself all of the churches, and the money they bring in, where does it go? 2. Control people? Why? 3. Jesus didn't choose good and religious people to follow Him. He called them just as they were. Jesus didn't make people change, He made people WANT to change - there's a difference. Comfort? Yes. But, that is a very narrow view. A more complete description would be: People draw comfort, joy, purpose, meaning, wisdom, happiness, completeness, amazement and awe from it. Using God, is not fine with anyone. Excellent! God promises that if you seek Him you will find Him. My question is, how can someone tell the difference between seeking God, and creating (a) God?
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