Stripping through Culture to find Christ

[Pietro]

Raimon Panikkar's comments are helpful in distinguishing between Christ as He is and Christ as our culture has come to understand Him:


Once upon a time there was an anguished lover who, over the course of many years, sent pkmtyolpionate love letters to his beloved in a far distant land. At long last she wrote back to say she had married the mailman!

Like her, the West has fallen in love with the messenger. It has become infatuated with a rational approach to reality. But reason, the reign of rationality, is only an intermediary. Religion in the West has sacrificed too much for it. It is time to realize that our task is to forget the letter and hold fast to the Lord.

Over the course of two millennia the Christian tradition in the West has worked out a symbiosis of two or three cultures. We can rightfully be proud of this accomplishment. But at the beginning of this third millennium, even if the majority of humanity is barraged by the American way of life, we know that three quarters of the world’s population remains basically a stranger to this Christian and post-Christian culture. And so, if we believe in the mystery of Christ, then the time has come to become truly “catholic,” that is to say, to belong to the entire world. For that to happen it is not necessary to come up with new ways of giving expression to the mystery, but rather to consent to an impoverishment and even a stripping away. We have to begin by stripping Christ of all the Western garments we have clothed him with. We will then be able to bring about a change analogous to that which the Apostles dared to enact when they did away with circumcision at the first council of Jerusalem. It’s time to prepare for Jerusalem II!

monasticdialog.com/a.php?id=513

[woodyblueeyes]

So...whats the message here?

;D

[PhilipDC78]

Yeah, I am also confused as to what exactly you are saying here Pietro.

[woodyblueeyes]

Pietro said:

It is time to realize that our task is to forget the letter and hold fast to the Lord.

Quick tip. The "letter" IS the Lord. The Word Is the Lord. Therefore I think we should probably hold fast to the letter, i.e. the Word, as well as the Lord, since the two are one.

Monastic Interreligion? Wow...that's a mouthful.

[Pietro]

PhilipDC78 said:

Yeah, I am also confused as to what exactly you are saying here Pietro.

My point is that western culture does not have a monopoly on Christ. Jesus was a Jew but our understanding of who he is came through the application of greek philosophy. Very well. We needed that. It helped us come up with some symbolic terms for an unfathomable mystery. But we tend to forget that Christ is much more than that. In fact, Christ is already present everywhere and always has been. We need ot recognize that fact.

The statement: It is time to realize that our task is to forget the letter and hold fast to the Lord.

Doesn't mean forget the Bible or any sacred scripture. It means set aside our reductionist analysis of what we think we have defined. "Homoousias"? We sure nailed God with that one, didn't we.

Many have come to idolize their theology and their interpretation of the Bible. That has led to disunity and ill feelings. Interreligious dialogue helps us to recognize Christ already present in other cultures, theologies, and religions as well as seeing him in new ways in our own.

[PhilipDC78]

I do agree that we cannot fit Christ into a neat little box, which is what a lot of Christians in the western world try to do. God is much bigger than that! I also agree that this has been the cause of a lot of the disunity in the Christian church.

However, if you are saying that Christ can be "found" in the other religions of the world, and that by being faithful to those religions, that people can come into a relationship with the one true God, then you are mistaken. Christ himself said that He is the only way, and that nobody could get to the Father except through Him.

[woodyblueeyes]

I'd have to agree with Philip on this one. There is only one way to Christ.

[Pietro]

PhilipDC78 said:

I do agree that we cannot fit Christ into a neat little box, which is what a lot of Christians in the western world try to do. God is much bigger than that! I also agree that this has been the cause of a lot of the disunity in the Christian church.

However, if you are saying that Christ can be "found" in the other religions of the world, and that by being faithful to those religions, that people can come into a relationship with the one true God, then you are mistaken. Christ himself said that He is the only way, and that nobody could get to the Father except through Him.

But then are you not limiting Christ? Were not all things created through him? Does not all creation from the beginning of time reveal him in some way? There is only one God, one Trinity, one Christ. Surely anyone truly committed to God, seeks God, and has a personal relationship with God has it with Christ. Though it may be imperfect, unclear, and not fully understood. No? Don't we all suffer from limited understanding and incomplete vision of God, of Christ? We're talking about a sacred eternal mystery here, something our mortal minds can hardly conceive.

[PhilipDC78]

Pietro said:

But then are you not limiting Christ? Were not all things created through him? Does not all creation from the beginning of time reveal him in some way? There is only one God, one Trinity, one Christ. Surely anyone truly committed to God, seeks God, and has a personal relationship with God has it with Christ. Though it may be imperfect, unclear, and not fully understood. No? Don't we all suffer from limited understanding and incomplete vision of God, of Christ? We're talking about a sacred eternal mystery here, something our mortal minds can hardly conceive.

I'm sorry, but this just shows your limited knowledge of the other faiths and just how different Christianity is from them. There is a reason why Christ said that there was only one way to God, and that was through Him.

The ultimate end of your argument is that as long as a person follows some kind of faith to their fullest ability, then they will reach God. Whether that be through human sacrifices, doing a certain set of good works, killing all those who disagree with your beliefs, or something else. This is an age-old false belief that all faiths lead to God.

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

[k8reader]

Pietro said:

But then are you not limiting Christ? Were not all things created through him? Does not all creation from the beginning of time reveal him in some way? There is only one God, one Trinity, one Christ. Surely anyone truly committed to God, seeks God, and has a personal relationship with God has it with Christ. Though it may be imperfect, unclear, and not fully understood. No? Don't we all suffer from limited understanding and incomplete vision of God, of Christ? We're talking about a sacred eternal mystery here, something our mortal minds can hardly conceive.

Hi Pietro,
The second time I heard God speak to me, was on this very issue. I was crying out to Him over all of those who followed different religions. I asked why He wouldn't just make Himself clear to them, the way He made Himself clear to me. In reply, He said "Why are you worried about all of them? You should be more concerned with being happy because you DO know Me."
From that point on, that's what I did. I know the Lord, Jesus Christ. And so I am filled with Joy!

So, I'll ask you the same thing: Why are you worried about all of them ?

Finally, if our salvation was based on our attempts to find God, then Jesus would not have needed to die on the cross. The Jews were very good at attempting to find God, but they couldn't see Him when He was standing right in front of them.

Ultimately, Jesus is the One who saves. If He reaches out and saves a Buddhist monk, that is up to Him, not me. But, I will also not abandon His word and decide that He IS reaching out and saving the Buddhist monk. I follow what He SAID, and He didn't say to be faithful to whatever beliefs you had.

[LauraJean]

RO 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

RO 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.




Well said, Philip and K8. I would like to add that Christianity is different from every other faith system because it does not depend on the individual to attain whatever it is he must attain (do, think, feel, eschew) in order to be with God. Only Christianity describes a path to God that depends on God, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Further, most other faith systems have a god that is not personal, not loving, not compkmtyolpionate. Some aren't even omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient.
Our God cares about us, knows about us, is active in our lives, has great desires for us, has total power over life and death, over Heaven and Hell.

No, there is no parity, no comparison, between Christianity and any other faith system.







One thing, however, K8: You said, "Why are you worried about all of them ?"

I worry about those who don't know Christ because I believe they are bound for Hell. (I know you believe likewise) I believe God wants those people to be with Him as much as He wants me, and if I can in any way share the hope and joy I find in Him with those who don't know Him, I am compelled to do so. He does not provide alternative routes to those people, and He put me here on this Earth to share with them what I know, in order to find the one Way.

Anyway, I know of your great love for our Lord, and I know of your compkmtyolpion for those who don't know Him, and I think I'm not properly understanding what you meant by your comment.



Blessings, all!
LJ

[k8reader]

LauraJean said:

One thing, however, K8: You said, "Why are you worried about all of them ?"

I worry about those who don't know Christ because I believe they are bound for Hell. (I know you believe likewise) I believe God wants those people to be with Him as much as He wants me, and if I can in any way share the hope and joy I find in Him with those who don't know Him, I am compelled to do so. He does not provide alternative routes to those people, and He put me here on this Earth to share with them what I know, in order to find the one Way.

Anyway, I know of your great love for our Lord, and I know of your compkmtyolpion for those who don't know Him, and I think I'm not properly understanding what you meant by your comment.



Blessings, all!
LJ

Hello LJ!!!
Right you are! We are called to make disciples of all nations, to spread the good news and to be ready with an answer for the life we have! Hallelujah!!

However; the lost can be a stumbling block! Surely you have heard it before:

"My god loves everyone, so he would never send anyone to hell";

"I love my gay, uncle Steve, I could never be a Christian",

"What about all of those tribes in Australia who have never heard of Christ? He couldn't be the only way";

"God wouldn't have set it up so that there is only one correct religion!"

When God asked me why was I worried about all of them, I don't believe He was telling me not to evangelize. Perhaps He was telling me to start! Being sad and worried about the lost isn't going to do much to attract them to Christ. Allowing Christ to live in me will attract the lost to Christ. Jesus is irresistible! But unless, someone actually sees Christ, they won't be drawn to Him. Should I walk around sad and unsatisfied that I have a "religion" that says people will go to hell? Or, should I express the joy I feel in knowing the Lord Jesus Christ! I was placing the burden of the lost on MYSELF. It is not ME who saves, it is Jesus who saves! I can't give people the Holy Spirit! I can only be an instrument used by God. The lost are His burden. Hope that makes a modicum of sense!!

BUT, ultimately, my allegiance is to Jesus Christ my Lord. He comes first, before my family, friends, and all kingdoms of the earth. Jesus Himself said that anyone who loves his mother or father or son or daughter more then Him, was not worthy of Him (Matt. 10:37) So, it is great to have a heart for the lost, but not to the point of rejecting the one True God and who He is. Many claim Jesus as part of their beliefs, but they describe someone different then the Jesus I know, who matches the God of the Bible. When we start saying that all paths lead to God, we are rejecting the cross and the true sacrifice made there. Ultimately, each one of us makes a choice, to stand with God, or to stand with humanity. That's what I meant by "Why are you worried about all of them"