Protestan Unity

[Cohdra]

Whether or not non-Catholics believe the RCC is wrong, they never seem to address the major problem of unity among their own sects, in the light that the theory of a divided Church is contrary to scripture:

On the other hand, the contradictory teachings of the churches create pkmtyolmive incoherence and confusion. There is error somewhere, and the consequences are radically deep. It is not coherent to claim that the Church believes this or that, yet one’s own church holds contradictory beliefs as compared with another. It does not make sense that the Church would be so confused on these matters. Jesus promised to lead us into all truth. His promise means nothing if we just shrug and say, "Well, we’ll all find out whose right some day." This contradiction in teaching should be as grievous to us as our manifest divisions. How can we claim that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, when we live as though there is no Truth, as though doctrine really didn’t matter, because, after all, we’ll all get it figured out someday?

© 2002 Clifton D. Healy


www.geocities.com/chealy5/ProtestantProblem.htm

As non-catholics go out of their way to attack Orthodoxy, they have never removed this "Plank" from their own eye

Any opinions?


God bless, Cohdra

(Please excuse any typos; I'm having some family problems right now, so I'm a bit distracted; TY for your patience)

[PhilipDC78]

Cohdra said:

Whether or not non-Catholics believe the RCC is wrong, they never seem to address the major problem of unity among their own sects, in the light that the theory of a divided Church is contrary to scripture:

On the other hand, the contradictory teachings of the churches create pkmtyolmive incoherence and confusion. There is error somewhere, and the consequences are radically deep. It is not coherent to claim that the Church believes this or that, yet one’s own church holds contradictory beliefs as compared with another. It does not make sense that the Church would be so confused on these matters. Jesus promised to lead us into all truth. His promise means nothing if we just shrug and say, "Well, we’ll all find out whose right some day." This contradiction in teaching should be as grievous to us as our manifest divisions. How can we claim that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, when we live as though there is no Truth, as though doctrine really didn’t matter, because, after all, we’ll all get it figured out someday?

© 2002 Clifton D. Healy


www.geocities.com/chealy5/ProtestantProblem.htm

As non-catholics go out of their way to attack Orthodoxy, they have never removed this "Plank" from their own eye

Any opinions?


God bless, Cohdra

(Please excuse any typos; I'm having some family problems right now, so I'm a bit distracted; TY for your patience)

The lack of unity among the whole body of Christ (including the Roman Catholic Church) is probably one of the greatest tragedies and mistakes that Christians have made over the course of history. I think it is very, very sad. Which is why unity movements that I see happenning all over the world give me encouragement, and hope that we can unite as one under Christ before he returns. Just here in Gainesville, FL where I live, there is a group of almost 30 churches (protestant and catholic) working together to help each other for the good of Christ. Also the Christian groups here on the University of Florida campus are starting to have joint outreach events, and joint prayer meetings, and I think that is very exciting!

[SonWorshiper]

I pray that your family problems get worked out okay through the power of Jesus Christ.

[Cohdra]

SonWorshiper said:

I pray that your family problems get worked out okay through the power of Jesus Christ.

Tyvm I need prayers right now.....God bless you!!

[TarueBeliever]

To my knowledge, the "sect" I belong to has never claimed to be perfect. Humans aren't perfect. Only God is perfect.

Yet, within a strict definition, the Catholic Church has said the Pope is, in a sense, "perfect." Yet even within the strict definition of "infallibility," the Pope of the time has been found to wrong.

Catholic Councils base their decrees on the writings of the "Church Fathers." These men made cases for their beliefs based on faulty logic. And the worst logic of all is the premise, "[blank] must be correct because the Church has always taught [blank]. Circular logic!

The Catholic Church has had its share of splits, disunity, and internal disagreements. In the past it squelched disunity through harsh and sometimes deadly "discipline." When and where it lost political power and the ability to carry out these "disciplining," people shrugged it off.

The Catholic Church answer is "we can't be wrong because we've be around so long." I say there were heretics in Peter and Paul's day. No one knows if any of the "Church Fathers" even knew the first Apostles. After the Churches at Rome and at Constantinople had taken over control of all the other churches, all documents disagreeing with a Catholic view were most likely destroyed, IMHO.

What I ask for on these threads is why? Why do people believe what they believe? I believe what I believe about God because it is in the Bible. That and what I have witnessed during my own lifetime. Outside of these sources, I cannot and will not tell you anything about God. If you will not acccept these sources, I have nothing to offer you.

If you say what you beleive is in the Bible and I disagree, I will not hesitate to show you your error. If you think I am wrong, please show me my error. Only a fool thinks he cannot make an error. Otherwise, I'd have read the Bible once through and and said to my self, "Good enough."

But very few on this board can answer why they believe. Most begin to make personal attacks. Or answer with "well what about you?" Or they pull a single scripture out of a context that has nothing to do with the subject we're discussing and hold it up as proof.

I would want everyone to have a firm basis for their beliefs. Not Sunday School comics nor something they think some clergy said one time. I want everyone to read a "real" Bible -- not a paraphrased one. Study it Book by Book, Chapter by Chapter, Verse by Verse -- the way it was written. Pray before you read for God to make it meaningful to you. If you don't understand something, write it down & ask someone you trust to explain it to you. Worst case, you can always ask me.

TB, aka Scott

[Protestant]

PhilipDC78 said:

The lack of unity among the whole body of Christ (including the Roman Catholic Church) is probably one of the greatest tragedies and mistakes that Christians have made over the course of history.

What an absurd thing to say . was the Protestant reformation a sin? It was a movement led by God. It revealed the antichrist and led the church back to the bible.

I think it is very, very sad. Which is why unity movements that I see happenning all over the world give me encouragement, and hope that we can unite as one under Christ before he returns.

The reversal of the reformation is a satanic plot. Ecumenism is unity with Rome not with Christ.

Just here in Gainesville, FL where I live, there is a group of almost 30 churches (protestant and catholic) working together to help each other for the good of Christ... joint prayer meetings, and I think that is very exciting

Are they praying to the Father or mary. Do they say the Lord's prayer or the rosary?

[PhilipDC78]

Protestant,

Are you actually saying that the body of Christ should not be united as one under Christ, who is the head of the church?

[TarueBeliever]

Philip,

I believe there should be only one Christian church. But I do not believe that one church is the Catholic Church.

The prophets and the apostles delivered a simple gospel in the Testaments. The Catholic Church through its muddled logic and mixture of mysticism tried to corrupt the Word of God by adding the so-called Apostolic Traditions of the Catholic Church. These teachings when studied carefully can be seen for what they are -- silliness at best, a purposeful intent to mix-in elements from other religions at worst.

In bringing all Christians together, united under Christ, I don't it's a good thing to dilute the Bible with the teachings of men. We have differences for a reason -- somebody is wrong! One thing we agree on is that the Bible is the written Word of God. Let's start from there.

Scott

[Cohdra]

Hi all

Thanx for your replies. I don't think I made this clear enough in my initial post. I am not referring to unity between Catholicism and Protestantism. I was exclusively referring to the lack of unity among Protestant sects. I realize that most non-Catholic Christians are against unity with Rome, so I would like to leave Catholicism and Orthodoxy out of this discussion, and focus on lack of Protestant unity, why they are not unified, and what it would take to unify the Protestant sects. Thanx everyone for your time

God bless

[LauraJean]

Here's how my denom. answers that question:

A. Since apostolic times visible Christendom has been divided. Although there are historical, cultural, and sociological factors that have contributed to such division, departure from God's truth revealed to us in the Holy Scriptures must be regarded as the principal cause for such division. The apostles themselves foresaw and had to deal with such division within early Christian communities (see, for example, Acts 20:25-31). While the Scriptures are the inerrant source and norm of all doctrine and while God's Truth is one, sinful human beings can and do err. Hence, division occurs in visible Christendom.

The same can be said for modern denominationalism. While there are historical, cultural and sociological factors involved in the formation of denominations, disagreement regarding the understanding and application of biblical doctrine remains the fundamental reason for division between and among them. We hold that there can be only one Truth, and that denominations exist because some Christians have departed from what is faithful to biblical doctrine. In spite of the divided state of Christendom, we in The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod remain committed to the quest for external unity in the church based on agreement in doctrine. We believe that this is not an option, but is God's will.

I believe the debates and discussions we have on these very boards bears this out... we don't agree on what the Bible means. Pick any issue (baptism, holy communion, age of accountability, worship on Sunday, Purgatory, self-defense, war, end times, millenialism, etc.) and you'll get 100 different opinions about what the same verses say on these topics.
Are the sinners "left behind" or are the righteous?
Is Saturday sabbath set aside or isn't it?
Is the bread and wine really body and blood or not?
Do we turn the other cheek always or do we sometimes take up arms?
Is it important to immerse in baptism or isn't it?
Do we have to understand our sin in order to be guilty of it or not?
Does "is" mean "is?"


We all point to the same verses to answer these questions and see different meanings. Thank our common enemy, Satan, for this. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that it is Satan who is our enemy, not the fellowship of the body of Christ with whom we may at times disagree.

Blessings,
LJ

[Cohdra]

Great post LauraJean

[PhilipDC78]

TarueBeliever said:

Philip,

I believe there should be only one Christian church. But I do not believe that one church is the Catholic Church.

The prophets and the apostles delivered a simple gospel in the Testaments. The Catholic Church through its muddled logic and mixture of mysticism tried to corrupt the Word of God by adding the so-called Apostolic Traditions of the Catholic Church. These teachings when studied carefully can be seen for what they are -- silliness at best, a purposeful intent to mix-in elements from other religions at worst.

In bringing all Christians together, united under Christ, I don't it's a good thing to dilute the Bible with the teachings of men. We have differences for a reason -- somebody is wrong! One thing we agree on is that the Bible is the written Word of God. Let's start from there.

Scott

Scott,

Just for the record, I am not Roman Catholic, never said I was, and I never said that all Christians should be united in the Roman Catholic church. I actually attend a Vineyard church right now and have attended non-denominational churches for most of my life.

I however also believe that there are Christians in the Roman Catholic church, and I have met some of them here, as well as out in the real world. Protestant comes in with his heretical hate messages that all Roman Catholics are the spawn of satan, and that I don't agree with. Which is why I asked him that question.

I still stick to my view that the lack of unity in the body of Christ (both Protestant as well as the Roman Catholic church, and the other orthodox churches) is one of the biggest blots of shame on the body of Christ today. Sure, different people worship different ways, but they argue over inconsequential things, and so the unbelieving world sees a fractured and fighting body.

And yes, I do agree that the Bible is the written word of God, not to be superceded by human tradition or even held on the same level.

[PhilipDC78]

Cohdra said:

Hi all

Thanx for your replies. I don't think I made this clear enough in my initial post. I am not referring to unity between Catholicism and Protestantism. I was exclusively referring to the lack of unity among Protestant sects. I realize that most non-Catholic Christians are against unity with Rome, so I would like to leave Catholicism and Orthodoxy out of this discussion, and focus on lack of Protestant unity, why they are not unified, and what it would take to unify the Protestant sects. Thanx everyone for your time

God bless

Well, what I tried to state in my original reply is that I think the WHOLE body of Christ should be unified under our true head, that being Christ. I believe that Roman Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as much as the Eastern or Greek Orthodox, and the different Protestant denominations.

So asking how to unify the different Protestant denominations without including the rest of the body of Christ to me is like asking how to put together a shattered vase while withholding several missing pieces. It just would not be whole again without them.

[Protestant]

PhilipDC78 said:

Protestant comes in with his heretical hate messages that all Roman Catholics are the spawn of satan

**Edited to remove name calling.***

<Edited by AuntRonda>





I have never said that ever.

If the churches could unite on a platform of truth that would be great. But they never will. Most protestant churches have abandoned their beliefs and are in the ecumenical movement which is unity with Rome.

[Cohdra]

PhilipDC78 said:

Well, what I tried to state in my original reply is that I think the WHOLE body of Christ should be unified under our true head, that being Christ. I believe that Roman Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as much as the Eastern or Greek Orthodox, and the different Protestant denominations.

So asking how to unify the different Protestant denominations without including the rest of the body of Christ to me is like asking how to put together a shattered vase while withholding several missing pieces. It just would not be whole again without them.

Thank you for your replies I totally respect your position, and I do believe it is the ideal.

However, I would like to see an in-depth discussion on Protestant Unity only. I would like to see how far a thread can go without any discussion of Catholicism. Since protestantism has rejected the RCC and Orthodoxy, they should not even be a factor in this debate. It seems to me that for whatever reason, most Prostestants are constantly comparing themselves to a form of Christianity that they don't even believe is Christian. It is also used as a "dodge"; can't think of a rational response? Attack Rome!!!!

That's why I wanted to keep this thread away from RC and Orthodoxy, and place it strictly within the Prostestant issue. LauraJean made an excellent post!!

Let's discuss Protestant issues of division w/o mentioning RC and Orthodoxy

Thanx everyone!!

God bless