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Post by genesda on May 10, 2004 7:05:37 GMT -5
This is absolutely false. The protests had nothing to due with prolonging the war. And there is no historical record that would indicate otherwise. Politics is what prevented the USA from ever considering victory there in the first place. The war protesters are what kept the politics alive instead of a will to win. To deny the war protesters as a political tool that prevented winning is just not being honest. The war was prolonged by those who wanted to l;ook like winners but were attempting to find a way out. This caused many to die when they wouldn't have had to if the military would have been allowed to win from the beginning. The only thing that brought the NVA to the peace talks in a serious way, was the bombing of the North by Nixon. They didn't get serious until they saw that Nixon might not act as the Democrats did under Johnson. They feared Nixon, but the cowards at home guided the process. Nixon was weighing his re-election against the war and sought a middle ground also. That's the way I saw that happen.
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Post by marysia on May 10, 2004 7:09:18 GMT -5
one of the things about the protesters that bothers me the most... the way they did nothing but fuel hatred for those serving over there. when our military returned they were met with the hatred fuel by the pkmtyolpion of vile negativity.
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Post by genesda on May 10, 2004 7:11:03 GMT -5
Absolutely incorrect and just some revisionist history on your part. Not in the context you are presenting. The NVA knew we were a divided country politically, just as the Arabs know it today. They know if they can hang on until the war protesters start up again, or until they can help Kerry get elected they can win. I'd bet money that if Bush wins re-election, there will be a rapid decline in fighting in Iraq, and others will fall somewhat in line. The key to terrorists activities is to have a liberal in the White House. They can then succeed with their political agenda, or at least advance it as they did under the 8 years of Clinton. [/color]
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Post by RealistState on May 10, 2004 22:00:30 GMT -5
Absolutely incorrect and just some revisionist history on your part. Not in the context you are presenting. The NVA knew we were a divided country politically, just as the Arabs know it today. They know if they can hang on until the war protesters start up again, or until they can help Kerry get elected they can win. I'd bet money that if Bush wins re-election, there will be a rapid decline in fighting in Iraq, and others will fall somewhat in line. The key to terrorists activities is to have a liberal in the White House. They can then succeed with their political agenda, or at least advance it as they did under the 8 years of Clinton. [/color][/quote] Pure speculation with no basis in fact. Sorry, the demonstrators for peace in this country or anywhere else affected how the NVA prosecuted their war.
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Post by RealistState on May 10, 2004 22:17:43 GMT -5
one of the things about the protesters that bothers me the most... the way they did nothing but fuel hatred for those serving over there. when our military returned they were met with the hatred fuel by the pkmtyolpion of vile negativity. That's a generalization. I never saw any hatred. Perhaps it was that liberal media thing. I heard that people were spat at. It never happened to me or anyone I know. I never saw any parades like they had for the returning veterans of WW2. But than again, going from the jungle onto an Boeing 707 with air conditioning and drinks was little different than the troop transports of WW2.
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Post by genesda on May 11, 2004 6:16:13 GMT -5
Pure speculation with no basis in fact. Sorry, the demonstrators for peace in this country or anywhere else affected how the NVA prosecuted their war. It's not speculation at all. Our enemies understand the politics in this country better than average americans. They know all about liberal Democrats and their attitude towards appeasement. They know that the liberals are "usefull idiots" when it comes to doing something tough, like using force to defend america. They know full well the effects of "pictures". The current scandal involving the Iraqi prisoners was not a secret. This was discolsed within days of the reports, but it wasn't until the "pictures" hit the newspapers and T.V. that all of this stupid crap started. I see nothiong wrong with humiliating those captives if it helps get the needed information to bring about an end to the fighting and killing. Physical torture and murder is over the line and those responsible should be brought to justice. Mental torture is another story.
Just ask yourself if you would be in favor of mental torture to get information if that would save YOUR son's life, then insert your neighbor's son into the picture and ask the same.
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Post by genesda on May 11, 2004 6:19:15 GMT -5
That's a generalization. I never saw any hatred. Perhaps it was that liberal media thing. I heard that people were spat at. It never happened to me or anyone I know. I never saw any parades like they had for the returning veterans of WW2. But than again, going from the jungle onto an Boeing 707 with air conditioning and drinks was little different than the troop transports of WW2. You're in denial. Those '60's cowards were all over the place. Maybe it was the dope they were using. Clinton and his crowd were part of those '60's cowards. [/color]
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Post by marysia on May 11, 2004 6:40:39 GMT -5
That's a generalization. I never saw any hatred. Perhaps it was that liberal media thing. I heard that people were spat at. It never happened to me or anyone I know. I never saw any parades like they had for the returning veterans of WW2. But than again, going from the jungle onto an Boeing 707 with air conditioning and drinks was little different than the troop transports of WW2. you are correct - the media started then with showing only the negative. from the men i know who were there - coming home was very difficult. maybe it was due to the area - ann arbor & detroit michigan were the major cities (along with the suburbs).
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Post by RealistState on May 11, 2004 17:02:58 GMT -5
Pure speculation with no basis in fact. Sorry, the demonstrators for peace in this country or anywhere else affected how the NVA prosecuted their war. It's not speculation at all. Our enemies understand the politics in this country better than average americans. [/color][/quote] Show me the proof that North Vietnam decisions was based on public sentiment of the US peace activists. Otherwise, it's just opinion and speculation.
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Post by RealistState on May 11, 2004 17:09:07 GMT -5
That's a generalization. I never saw any hatred. Perhaps it was that liberal media thing. I heard that people were spat at. It never happened to me or anyone I know. I never saw any parades like they had for the returning veterans of WW2. But than again, going from the jungle onto an Boeing 707 with air conditioning and drinks was little different than the troop transports of WW2. You're in denial. Those '60's cowards were all over the place. Maybe it was the dope they were using. Clinton and his crowd were part of those '60's cowards. [/color][/quote] So now you're going to tell me what I experienced? Don't you think that's a bit over the top? As far as I know, I didn't know you back then. And I do know (by your own admission), that you were never in the places I've been. So would you like to retract that statement? As far as "cowards", would you say that (other than Kerry), the other Vietnam Veterans that marched for peace were cowards?
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Post by RealistState on May 11, 2004 17:10:59 GMT -5
you are correct - the media started then with showing only the negative. from the men i know who were there - coming home was very difficult. maybe it was due to the area - ann arbor & detroit michigan were the major cities (along with the suburbs). I agree. Coming home from a war zone with no time to "decompress" had a devastating affect on a great many veterans. Unfortunately, many were not equipped to deal with it and still suffer today.
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Post by marysia on May 11, 2004 17:26:06 GMT -5
I agree. Coming home from a war zone with no time to "decompress" had a devastating affect on a great many veterans. Unfortunately, many were not equipped to deal with it and still suffer today. that is one of the reason's i'm thankful (at least) for the troop support from those that may not support the cause. being so engrossed within the military and their family - it would tear my heart to shreds. however, i still think the media gives them a bum rap over there.
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Post by genesda on May 18, 2004 6:37:59 GMT -5
So now you're going to tell me what I experienced? Don't you think that's a bit over the top? As far as I know, I didn't know you back then. And I do know (by your own admission), that you were never in the places I've been. So would you like to retract that statement? As far as "cowards", would you say that (other than Kerry), the other Vietnam Veterans that marched for peace were cowards? I don't recall mentioning you personally and didn't intend to, but if the shoe fits, wear it. [/color]
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