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Post by MorningStar on May 4, 2004 9:45:08 GMT -5
True if you were only looking at actual combat records. Let's look at actual wounds too, not just scratches that were used to get him out of Vietnam after only 4 months there! [/color][/quote] So while he was getting scratched in Vietnam, where was G.W.?
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Post by marysia on May 4, 2004 10:12:21 GMT -5
So while he was getting scratched in Vietnam, where was G.W.? GWB never said he was there and has not claimed to be a "hero". what bothers me is not that kerry was a protester after his time, it's the fact that he threw away his time when he threw away his ribbons. he threw them away, he tossed it away -- it became a mute point, null and void...
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Post by RealistState on May 4, 2004 21:28:28 GMT -5
True if you were only looking at actual combat records. Let's look at actual wounds too, not just scratches that were used to get him out of Vietnam after only 4 months there! [/color][/quote] You'll need to review his record a little more closely. According to my calculations, he was "in-country" a little over 10 months. Coincidently, when he got his 2nd Purple Heart, he also recieved the Silver Star. The 3rd Purple Heart, he received the Bronze Star. Both actions are well documented by the Department of the Navy, and the wounds would certainly not be characterized as scratches. I guess you could ask him to roll up his sleeves and pants leg to examine the scars.
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Post by RealistState on May 4, 2004 21:33:30 GMT -5
GWB never said he was there and has not claimed to be a "hero". what bothers me is not that kerry was a protester after his time, it's the fact that he threw away his time when he threw away his ribbons. he threw them away, he tossed it away -- it became a mute point, null and void... Actually it was the Department of Defense that designated him "hero" status by virtue of awarding both the Silver Star and the Bronze Star for two separate actions. As far his act of protest by throwing away his ribbons, I don't think even his most ardent critics have said that it negated his actions in a combat zone.
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Post by marysia on May 5, 2004 8:41:33 GMT -5
Actually it was the Department of Defense that designated him "hero" status by virtue of awarding both the Silver Star and the Bronze Star for two separate actions. As far his act of protest by throwing away his ribbons, I don't think even his most ardent critics have said that it negated his actions in a combat zone. good morning! although it is true the DoD did create his "status" he is the one that threw it away. they gave the ribbons/medals to honour and he did not want that honour any longer so... he chucked it. by doing so IMO he can not take them back -- it's like tossing feathers into the wind and then trying to find them all again.
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Post by MorningStar on May 5, 2004 9:27:26 GMT -5
good morning! although it is true the DoD did create his "status" he is the one that threw it away. they gave the ribbons/medals to honour and he did not want that honour any longer so... he chucked it. by doing so IMO he can not take them back -- it's like tossing feathers into the wind and then trying to find them all again. Why not change your mind? He was younger than and has probably learned a bit and grew up a little since.
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Post by marysia on May 5, 2004 12:58:54 GMT -5
Why not change your mind? He was younger than and has probably learned a bit and grew up a little since. honestly -- because i'm selfish. growing up my grandfathers pride was within his faith, country and family. this was his adopted country however, even whenm at age 95 being riddled with bone cancer, coverings over most of his arms and legs due to the skin cancer eating away his skin, he would still stand and salute during an anthem or such. his pride ran too deep. his salute had changed due to his missing fingers but... his stature was not the full 6'3 it once had been... his robust build was skeletal but... from him to the friends/sailors and soldiers i work with today -- i will not, can not degrade what they do - by choice - on a daily basis. those i know are men serving so forgive my not adding women, although i know they too are there. i see these men, talk with them, listen to their fears and laugh at their jokes. they wear their ribbons/medals with pride and stand tall. i've asked some of them what they think (about the ribbon incident) and you know - one of the guys walked away telling me he wouldn't say what he thought in front of a lady. i can forgive his foolishness and accredit it to his youth, however... it was something he felt pkmtyolpionate about and when you're that pkmtyolpionate -- it never truly dies. so yes, i forgive him as a person but can not forget when it comes to basing decisions.
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Post by MorningStar on May 5, 2004 13:53:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I meant that to mean why can't he change his mind after growning? Didn't mean to question your beliefs, sorry for the miscommunication.
Oh, how do Christians deal with Pride, being one of the seven deadly sins?
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Post by marysia on May 5, 2004 15:47:48 GMT -5
Yeah, I meant that to mean why can't he change his mind after growning? Didn't mean to question your beliefs, sorry for the miscommunication. Oh, how do Christians deal with Pride, being one of the seven deadly sins? i believe there are different depths. you can have pride in something you do, as long as you realize from Whom the abilities came. in the example about my grandpa, he had pride in his service but a stronger pride is the USA, an even stronger pride in the knowledge that God allowed him to make it to this country -- that is why he served and stood tall. if kerry were to admit openly and quit the "i'm a hero" nonsense - the look at me, then i might be more comfortable hearing about his service. i'm thankful he served but am not thankful for his negativity toward the service after he was done. it's just you can't tout - i'm proud of me without bring proud of us when it comes to the serivce. i had a bunch of other stuff but liked this one best... The Devil, the proud spirit, cannot endure to be mocked." - St. Thomas More, 16th Century "God is stern in dealing with the arrogant, but to the humble He shows kindness." - Proverbs 3:34 "Hatred of God comes from pride. It is contrary to the love of God ..." - The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2094 Overweening pride, arrogance, haughtiness: these have been the stuff of tragedy. Vanity, fussiness, delicacy: the stuff of comedy. These are all forms of self-delusion, and paper-thin masks over rotting features. Pride and vanity refuse the truth about who we are and substitute illusions for reality. While vanity is mostly concerned with appearance, pride is based in a real desire to be God, at least in one's own circle. The first requirement of pride is spiritual blindness. Any glimpse of God reveals our frailty and sinfulness, just as a well-lit bathroom mirror shows the flaws in our complexion. Like Oedipus, we are driven to gouge out our eyes at the sight of our wretchedness and wander away from our heavenly home, with no purpose or direction. Unlike Oedipus, we build up myriad illusions about who we are and what we are about. We can busy ourselves with career, family and even church work, thinking we are being driven by a strong work ethic, moral values or the fire of the Holy Spirit. In reality, we may be running away from God by running away from ourselves. Nearly everyone else can see that we are putting on a show, but not us. Our coworkers may hate us (they are just jealous), our children may self-destruct or leave us (they are ungrateful), and we may never truly pray but merely stand in the presence of a god we have created, but we still refuse to see. A second requirement of pride, indeed a symptom, is that each challenge to our pride drives us harder to improve our illusion of productivity, sanctity or compkmtyolpion. It has been said that the definition of a zealot is "one who has lost sight of his goal, and so redoubles his efforts." We might say the zealot works twice as hard to keep up appearances. When we hear sermons about pride, or read this text, we may be tempted to think of all the people we know who really need to read it. We need to read it. Pride is about us, and we would love to retain our illusions by pointing to others, saying: "But they are very proud. I really don't think I'm that great, but they do." The best pride detector is this: how much are we bothered by the pride of others? And if we feel attacked, is our response: "other people are worse." A strong indicator of pride is competitiveness. There is nothing wrong with playing to win, provided the joy is in the playing. If our happiness depends on defeating others or knowing our child is the star of the team, we are building a world of illusion.
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Post by genesda on May 6, 2004 5:33:25 GMT -5
So while he was getting scratched in Vietnam, where was G.W.? I don't know. Kerry is making an issue of his record in Vietnam, not G.W., so what's the point? By the way, the Democvrats are trying to make an issue of G.W.'s service record, "W" isn't out there spouting his service record. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 6, 2004 5:35:45 GMT -5
GWB never said he was there and has not claimed to be a "hero". what bothers me is not that kerry was a protester after his time, it's the fact that he threw away his time when he threw away his ribbons. he threw them away, he tossed it away -- it became a mute point, null and void... I agree. Kerry is a traitor and deserves to be treated like one, not elected president. His record is in the forefront now because he put it there and the truth is coming out. "Kerry isn't fit to be commander-in-chief" A quote from his superiors. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 6, 2004 5:37:24 GMT -5
You'll need to review his record a little more closely. According to my calculations, he was "in-country" a little over 10 months. 4 months is was is being reported. [/color] Coincidently, when he got his 2nd Purple Heart, he also recieved the Silver Star. The 3rd Purple Heart, he received the Bronze Star. Both actions are well documented by the Department of the Navy, and the wounds would certainly not be characterized as scratches. I guess you could ask him to roll up his sleeves and pants leg to examine the scars. His superiors said they were very minor and that one was self inflicted. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 6, 2004 5:39:57 GMT -5
Actually it was the Department of Defense that designated him "hero" status by virtue of awarding both the Silver Star and the Bronze Star for two separate actions. Yes, but if he feels that this is overblown, he has never stated it. [/color] As far his act of protest by throwing away his ribbons, I don't think even his most ardent critics have said that it negated his actions in a combat zone. You're right. His actions can never be changed. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 6, 2004 5:41:48 GMT -5
Why not change your mind? He was younger than and has probably learned a bit and grew up a little since. Where's the evidence of a change? He is still an antiwar protestor regardless of what he says. His voting record is what's in his heart, not his empty words. [/color]
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Post by genesda on May 6, 2004 5:44:25 GMT -5
i believe there are different depths. you can have pride in something you do, as long as you realize from Whom the abilities came. in the example about my grandpa, he had pride in his service but a stronger pride is the USA, an even stronger pride in the knowledge that God allowed him to make it to this country -- that is why he served and stood tall. if kerry were to admit openly and quit the "i'm a hero" nonsense - the look at me, then i might be more comfortable hearing about his service. i'm thankful he served but am not thankful for his negativity toward the service after he was done. it's just you can't tout - i'm proud of me without bring proud of us when it comes to the serivce. i had a bunch of other stuff but liked this one best... The Devil, the proud spirit, cannot endure to be mocked." - St. Thomas More, 16th Century "God is stern in dealing with the arrogant, but to the humble He shows kindness." - Proverbs 3:34 "Hatred of God comes from pride. It is contrary to the love of God ..." - The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2094 Overweening pride, arrogance, haughtiness: these have been the stuff of tragedy. Vanity, fussiness, delicacy: the stuff of comedy. These are all forms of self-delusion, and paper-thin masks over rotting features. Pride and vanity refuse the truth about who we are and substitute illusions for reality. While vanity is mostly concerned with appearance, pride is based in a real desire to be God, at least in one's own circle. The first requirement of pride is spiritual blindness. Any glimpse of God reveals our frailty and sinfulness, just as a well-lit bathroom mirror shows the flaws in our complexion. Like Oedipus, we are driven to gouge out our eyes at the sight of our wretchedness and wander away from our heavenly home, with no purpose or direction. Unlike Oedipus, we build up myriad illusions about who we are and what we are about. We can busy ourselves with career, family and even church work, thinking we are being driven by a strong work ethic, moral values or the fire of the Holy Spirit. In reality, we may be running away from God by running away from ourselves. Nearly everyone else can see that we are putting on a show, but not us. Our coworkers may hate us (they are just jealous), our children may self-destruct or leave us (they are ungrateful), and we may never truly pray but merely stand in the presence of a god we have created, but we still refuse to see. A second requirement of pride, indeed a symptom, is that each challenge to our pride drives us harder to improve our illusion of productivity, sanctity or compkmtyolpion. It has been said that the definition of a zealot is "one who has lost sight of his goal, and so redoubles his efforts." We might say the zealot works twice as hard to keep up appearances. When we hear sermons about pride, or read this text, we may be tempted to think of all the people we know who really need to read it. We need to read it. Pride is about us, and we would love to retain our illusions by pointing to others, saying: "But they are very proud. I really don't think I'm that great, but they do." The best pride detector is this: how much are we bothered by the pride of others? And if we feel attacked, is our response: "other people are worse." A strong indicator of pride is competitiveness. There is nothing wrong with playing to win, provided the joy is in the playing. If our happiness depends on defeating others or knowing our child is the star of the team, we are building a world of illusion. Marysia, why don't you ever quote Jesus? His words are much better. [/color]
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