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Post by genesda on Mar 30, 2004 11:24:43 GMT -5
Why are you hesitant to answer the question asked in the opening thread. You did respond negatively that no one is saved by keeping the law - but I'm asking - what does the verse mean. You are avoiding me. What contradiction have I claimed for Gal. 2:16. I remember making no such claim. Actually, as folks post on this thread - I am seeking to establish the context for this verse. I will expand the verse to include both halfs, which, frankly, I am surprised that no one else has done. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16) Again, you offered the negative - but the positive is found in the verse. What does it mean? Justified doesn't mean sanctified, so to be justified means to be forgiven. This happens when we repent and ask God's forgivness.
There is another whole conversation that goes along with justification. Being forgiven doesn't mean "Ticket to heaven under any circumstance".
It means "forgiven".
Paul also makes it clear that where there is no law, there is no sin. Are you saying that there is no sin in this world?
See Rom. 4:15
Is there a standard for Christian living?
What would cost a person their salvation obtained by justification/repentence?
I truly believe a person can return the gift of justification by simply returning to the wilfull lifestyle they had before they repented. If this is wrong, explain how?
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Post by Nicodemus on Mar 30, 2004 11:47:06 GMT -5
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16) Justified doesn't mean sanctified, so to be justified means to be forgiven. This happens when we repent and ask God's forgivness.
There is another whole conversation that goes along with justification. Being forgiven doesn't mean "Ticket to heaven under any circumstance".
It means "forgiven".
Paul also makes it clear that where there is no law, there is no sin. Are you saying that there is no sin in this world?
See Rom. 4:15
Is there a standard for Christian living?
What would cost a person their salvation obtained by justification/repentence?
I truly believe a person can return the gift of justification by simply returning to the wilfull lifestyle they had before they repented. If this is wrong, explain how?
[/color][/quote] Gene, I appreciate your response. In the verse that I offered, I see the word "justified" used three times but I do not see the word "sanctified" even once. We are not discussing sanctification in this verse at all. Are you stating that the gist of justification is to be forgiven? Is it? Or is there more to the word? And yes, I know that there is a whole another conversation dealing with forgiveness being some kind of a free pkmtyolp to sin willfully. Only, that is not the conversation we are having here. You mentioned Romans 4:15 but you didn't post it - I will do this for you: "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Yet you missed verse 16, and for one that cares greatly for context - this was surely only an oversight. "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all." Yes, this verse would apply to our overall discussion. But I'd like to consider the verse in Galatians and its surrounding context first. Is there a standard for Christian living? The standard for the Christian life - as well as for that of the unchristian life is the same - the holy and perfect standard of the Father: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven, is perfect." What would cost a person their salvation obtained by justification/repentence?Not clear on your question here. I truly believe a person can return the gift of justification by simply returning to the wilfull lifestyle they had before they repented. If this is wrong, explain how?Gene, the gift of God is eternal life - not justification. Justification is merely one of the benefits associated with salvation. It is a judicial act of God whereby he declares the one that is saved to be free from sin, as if that one had never sinned. The only persons, Gene, that return to the wilful lifestyle they had before they repented are pigs and dogs. The Bible says that believers are "new creatures," "sheep," and "lamb." Those that "return" to the old lifestyle are not new creatures in Christ. HOWEVER: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16) This verse does not only lend itself to a discussion of justification. It does not only speak of the works of the law, either. It also speaks of faith. Would you like to address that?#nosmileys |
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Post by TarueBeliever on Mar 30, 2004 11:56:25 GMT -5
Looking at the verse in Greek ...
eidotes de hoti ou dikaioutai anthrôpos ex ergôn nomou ean mê dia pisteôs Christou Iêsou, kai hêmeis eis Christon Iêsoun episteusamen, hina dikaiôthômen ek pisteôs Christou kai ouk ex ergôn nomou, hoti ex ergôn nomou ou dikaiôthêsetai pasa sarx.
Galatians 2:16 transliterated from the Nestlé-Aland 26 Greek New Testament Text
Roughly translated into English …
Theynom have been understanding | {but} | that | {neg} | <he/she/it> is set right | a mannom | out of | <of/from> works | <of/from> the Law | if so ever | {neg} | through {or by}/through/because of | <of/from> faith | <of/from> Christ Jesus | , | and | wenom | into {or unto} | Christ Jesusacc | <we> have believed | , | that {or so that} | <we> might be set right | out of | <of/from> faith | <of/from> Christ | and | {neg} | out of | <of/from> works | <of/from> the Law | , | that | out of | <of/from> works | <of/from> the Law | <he/she/it> will be set right | {neg} | whole | human bodynom | .
My translation is ...
{but} They have been understanding that a man is not set right out of works of the Law but only through faith in Christ Jesus, and we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be set right out of faith in Christ and not out of works of the Law, because nobody will be set right out of works of the Law.
So there are no surprises or unusual meanings in the verse.
In the context of the chapter, Galatians 2, Paul is rebuking Peter. The "we" in the verse is Paul, Peter, and other Christians. "They" are Gentile converts in Galatia. Peter had been in fellowship with the Gentile-Christians in Galatia until Jewish-Christians from Jerusalem showed up. Then Peter began to segregate himself from the Gentile-Christians. Jewish-Christians insisted that Gentile-Christians must adopt the Jewish customs and keep the Law. In Galatians 2:16, Paul says this is not necessary in order to be justified (brought into a correct relationship with God).
Scott
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Post by genesda on Mar 31, 2004 6:32:36 GMT -5
The standard that I am using is found in I Cor. 8:13 "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend" Are you really so afraid to answer to this verse? Anyone? "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16) What does it mean? I have answered you, but I;ll try this another way.
No one is saved by keeping the law. Faith is Jesus is the only way to salvation.
If you don't bel;ieve this is the answer, I can't help you.
Now answer the questions I posed.
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Post by genesda on Mar 31, 2004 6:35:57 GMT -5
Tell me something, Gene, and considering what you have told me about context - I deem this a fair question. On Saturday when you go to your fellowship - does your preacher read Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 before he begins to preach? Or does he ever take a single text and develop it? Would you force something upon us that you would not expect of your own preacher? No, he uses many verses to verify that his sermon correct and in context from God's teaching.
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Post by genesda on Mar 31, 2004 6:51:53 GMT -5
Gene, I appreciate your response. In the verse that I offered, I see the word "justified" used three times but I do not see the word "sanctified" even once. We are not discussing sanctification in this verse at all. Are you stating that the gist of justification is to be forgiven? Is it? Or is there more to the word? Justified means nothing more than to be forgiven of one's sins. [/color] And yes, I know that there is a whole another conversation dealing with forgiveness being some kind of a free pkmtyolp to sin willfully. Only, that is not the conversation we are having here. You mentioned Romans 4:15 but you didn't post it - I will do this for you: "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Yet you missed verse 16, and for one that cares greatly for context - this was surely only an oversight. "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all." Vs. 16 doesn't change vs. 15, so what's your point? By the way, that's why I only referenced 15. [/color] Yes, this verse would apply to our overall discussion. But I'd like to consider the verse in Galatians and its surrounding context first. That's your problem. You want to take one verse and consider that, while ignoring others on the same subject. That's how error creeps in. [/color] Is there a standard for Christian living? The standard for the Christian life - as well as for that of the unchristian life is the same - the holy and perfect standard of the Father: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven, is perfect." Does one acheive "perfection" by continuing to live in sin/trangression of the law? [/color] What would cost a person their salvation obtained by justification/repentence?Not clear on your question here. We are justified/saved by faith that Jesus will forgive us if we repent.
What can change that status? [/color] I truly believe a person can return the gift of justification by simply returning to the wilfull lifestyle they had before they repented. If this is wrong, explain how?Gene, the gift of God is eternal life - not justification. You're wrong. Eternal life is not even an option if one isn't first justified/forgiven. [/color] Justification is merely one of the benefits associated with salvation. Again, justification is forgivness, not a "benefit". [/color] It is a judicial act of God whereby he declares the one that is saved to be free from sin, as if that one had never sinned. Wrong again! No one is saved to be free from sin. When one is saved, it means he is forgiven of his sins by repentence of those sins. [/color] The only persons, Gene, that return to the wilful lifestyle they had before they repented are pigs and dogs. The Bible says that believers are "new creatures," "sheep," and "lamb." I disagree. People change.
I would never call someone a "pig or dog" because they fall from God's grace. People who fall can return to God as the parable of the prodical son reveals. [/color] Those that "return" to the old lifestyle are not new creatures in Christ. Saved people can and do fall from the Christian lifestyle and return to their former lives.
Are you living under the delusion of "once saved, always saved"? [/color] HOWEVER: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16) This verse does not only lend itself to a discussion of justification. It does not only speak of the works of the law, either. It also speaks of faith. Would you like to address that? Faith has always been what man needed. This isn't new unless you don't understand faith.
It was by faith in God that Able sacrificed a lamb and a lack of faith that Cain sacrificed something else.
Faith in God is what drove Noah to build the ark.
There has been nothing but faith in God that has saved man all the way from Adam.
There is and has always been only one plan of salvation and that is by faith in Jesus as the Savior of the world. [/color] |
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Post by Nicodemus on Mar 31, 2004 7:38:20 GMT -5
Are you stating that the gist of justification is to be forgiven? Is it? Or is there more to the word? Justified means nothing more than to be forgiven of one's sins. [/color] Justification is merely one of the benefits associated with salvation. Again, justification is forgivness, not a "benefit". [/color] It is a judicial act of God whereby he declares the one that is saved to be free from sin, as if that one had never sinned. Wrong again! No one is saved to be free from sin. When one is saved, it means he is forgiven of his sins by repentence of those sins. [/color] "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16) [/b][/color][/quote] If you are limiting the word "justification" to forgiveness only, then you have a problem with other verses. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that be works a man is justified, and not by faith only." By the act of being willing to sacrifice his son, Isaac, was Abraham "forgiven" in this context - or was the faith (and forgiveness) that he already had perfected? You see, justification cannot ONLY mean forgiveness - if at all. |
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Post by Nicodemus on Mar 31, 2004 19:44:06 GMT -5
"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:28-39).
JUSTIFICATION! It is a big word, and very often people miss its meaning. What is it to be justified? It is to be cleared of all blame, to be freed from every charge. It is the sentence of the court in favor of the prisoner. The prisoner stands there, charged with certain things; the evidence is all heard, and the jury brings in a verdict of "Not guilty." The man is justified.
Notice a most remarkable thing in these two verses. We have two things here which God does for the believing sinner that no man could do for anyone else.
You could not both forgive a man and justify him at the same time. If you forgive him, he cannot be justified. He must be guilty, and therefore there is something to forgive.
On the other hand, if you justify him, then you do not need to forgive him. Suppose, for instance, one had been charged with a certain crime, and after everything had been heard, the jury says, "Not guilty," and the judge pronounces him free. As that man comes out of the courtroom, a friend says to him, "It was kind of the judge to forgive you, wasn't it?" The man replies, "He did not forgive me; I did not require his forgiveness. I was justified; I was proven not guilty and did not need to be forgiven."#nosmileys
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Post by Jan on Mar 31, 2004 21:10:31 GMT -5
Justification of man by God simply means that when God washes and sancifies a sinner, He declares him not guilty  <>< |
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Post by genesda on Apr 1, 2004 7:33:51 GMT -5
If you are limiting the word "justification" to forgiveness only, then you have a problem with other verses. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that be works a man is justified, and not by faith only." The verses are showing that a man who professes faith alone is showing a dead faith. Abraham was showing his faith by taking action on his faith which resulted in good works. [/color] By the act of being willing to sacrifice his son, Isaac, was Abraham "forgiven" in this context - or was the faith (and forgiveness) that he already had perfected? He was living his faith in God and trusting God.
I don't see what justification has to do with these verses. [/color] You see, justification cannot ONLY mean forgiveness - if at all. I guess I don't really understand what you're getting at here.
We are justified by repentence. We receive salvation from our sins, then we are expected to be obedient to God and do good works as a result of our faith.
This is how works is a reflection of our faith and is the opposite of those who claim "faith alone" is enough.
Since God expects obedience as the example of man's part in salvation as Abraham shows us, we too are expected to do no less.
The question arises as to what we are to be obedient to.
Abraham obeyed all of God's laws, statutes and commandments.
Abraham was credited as having sacrificed Isaac because he would have done so if he had not been stopped.
Jesus was credited with having paid the price of the second death by the same means as Abraham was credited with sacrificing Isaac.
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Post by genesda on Apr 1, 2004 7:38:22 GMT -5
"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:28-39). JUSTIFICATION! It is a big word, and very often people miss its meaning. What is it to be justified? It is to be cleared of all blame, to be freed from every charge. It is the sentence of the court in favor of the prisoner. The prisoner stands there, charged with certain things; the evidence is all heard, and the jury brings in a verdict of "Not guilty." The man is justified. I agree, but does that mean the m,an can now go out and commit the same crimes over and over again?
The defendant is cleared of all changes at that time. It doesn't exempt him from crime for the rest of his life. [/color] Notice a most remarkable thing in these two verses. We have two things here which God does for the believing sinner that no man could do for anyone else. You could not both forgive a man and justify him at the same time. If you forgive him, he cannot be justified. He must be guilty, and therefore there is something to forgive. It's called sin. [/color] On the other hand, if you justify him, then you do not need to forgive him. Suppose, for instance, one had been charged with a certain crime, and after everything had been heard, the jury says, "Not guilty," and the judge pronounces him free. As that man comes out of the courtroom, a friend says to him, "It was kind of the judge to forgive you, wasn't it?" The man replies, "He did not forgive me; I did not require his forgiveness. I was justified; I was proven not guilty and did not need to be forgiven." This is silly. Which sinners are not guilty of sin?
Your example doesn't fit the scenario. [/color] |
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Post by genesda on Apr 1, 2004 7:39:17 GMT -5
Justification of man by God simply means that when God washes and sancifies a sinner, He declares him not guilty <>< Sounds like forgivness of sins to me. [/color] |
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Post by Cohdra on Apr 2, 2004 12:55:41 GMT -5
"For by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight" (Gal. 2:16) I'll just sit back and watch for a day or so.
James 2: 19-26God bless |
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Post by masarap on Apr 2, 2004 20:43:18 GMT -5
Cohdra, every true believer I have ever known have done "works" as a RESULT of faith. Never have I seen someone have faith as a result of their works alone...
For example, let look at the eagle..., the eagle soars and eats "eagle" things, he can see "like an eagle", he does eagle works like making a nest in the top of a mighty fir tree. The things he does do not make him an eagle. He does things he does simply because he is an eagle and has the nature of such.
When we are born again the Word tells us we are NEW creatures in Christ. We are given a NEW nature to do things that please God. We do not do things to try to please God so we can become Christians, but because of the Spirit which is imparted to us we do things that please God.
Now having said that I have seen people do works that look very much like "Christian" works but when trouble or dissapointment came they walked away and quit the race... Its seems that their motivation was self seeking and did not come from faith... Any and all good works have their root in faith. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits but sometimes the fruit is nice on the outside but filled with worms. With time it will be clear what kind of fruit it was, either good or bad. after a while we may find out that the eagle we thought we were seeing was really a turkey buzzard..... But what really makes an eagle an eagle is that he is born an eagle, and so are all who are born of the Spirit Christians!!!! God bless, Masarap
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Post by masarap on Apr 2, 2004 20:54:38 GMT -5
Justification of man by God simply means that when God washes and sancifies a sinner, He declares him not guilty <>< Sounds like forgivness of sins to me. [/color][/quote] Gene, it is so much more then forgiveness of sins... it is being found just, not guilty but more then that!!! justification makes us friends with God something that forgiveness could not do alone. Justification calls us righteous!! Something forgiveness could not do.... Justification opens the door for sanctification and we are given a intersessor in Heaven to plead on our behalf, forgiveness alone would not do this for us...
When we become justified God puts His best robe on us and a ring He puts on our finger and a banquet He calls us His son!!!! Praise be His mighty Name!!! Masarap |
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