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Post by RealistState on Mar 14, 2004 13:41:51 GMT -5
As a practicing Roman Catholic, know of the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. I had never heard of this creed.
Today, after pkmtyolm, I checked with the celebrant. He has an interesting story himself. As a young seminarian in Lithuania, he was imprisoned by the Nazi's and severly beaten. Now in his advanced age, the injuries suffered at the hands of the Nazi's have come back to haunt him.
Anyway, he knew of this creed, but even as a young seminarian was not required to recite it. As he recalled it had more to do with showing fialty to God and the Catholic Church against Protestantism. He said it was a relic of the past that is no longer of any use.
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Post by marysia on Mar 15, 2004 9:24:38 GMT -5
Hmmm, the Bible says the HOLY SPIRIT leads us in interpretation of the scriptures.....not the church.the church leaders are said to pray to the Holy Spirit for guidence and they share it with us for us to pray upon also. Baptism and The Lord's Supper are the ONLY ones mentioned in the Bible. actually, imo that is incorrect. confirmation is basically as Pentacost - asking the Holy Spirit to come completely into our lives and direct ourselves. marraige was from the very beginning and holy orders is basically what Christ bestowed upon His apostles and disciples. in 1 corinthains 12 we're told some will be 1,2,3rdteachers, leaders prophets... So the Holy Council of Trent's decisions are now placed above the Bible. If it is not in the Bible.....then decisions are man's not God's.the trent is based upon the bible and the interprutation they were guided to byt th Holy Spirit. Where does the Bible give man authority to decide a person should be called a saint and be venerated. Acutally all beleivers can be referred to as saints of God. yes we are all saints, however there are those who have become leaders, even in this day in age. these are people, such as mother theresa, who haveshown us through their unfailing trust in the Lord and living every day for God in the most charitable or "maryterable" way that yes, we too can live as the Lord instructed us. they are just modern examples. i feel they are much more worthy of being examples to children than ball players and things as such. THe church is not JUST the Catholic church....when the Bible talks about the church, the Bride of Christ, it is referring to ALL Christians......not just Catholics.that is correct and the catechism says the same - we say ourselves - one baptism for the forgieness of sins. there is one baptism and it is this baptism in the Lord that makes us all brothers & sisters in Christ. No one denomination is the only the true church. The TRUE church consists of all believers who have received Christ as their Saviour. again, the catechism says the same. We are to put our faith in the Bible, not what men may come up with. The Bible also warns about adding to or taking away from it.we are all persuaded by "men" that have interprutated the bible - as none of us read it in raw form - we're all reading a "man's" translation. i believe that there are people - many are on the board with us now, that have a very powerful insight to certian teachings of the bible. many have studied much more than I and therefore i welcome their ideas on various subjects. even when i disagree, they prod me to research and pray to find my own "why's" The Bible says in Romans ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. NOT just catholics.that is correct... have a lovely day!!
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Post by AuntRonda on Mar 15, 2004 9:57:55 GMT -5
Ronda: Hmmm, the Bible says the HOLY SPIRIT leads us in interpretation of the scriptures.....not the church.
marysia: the church leaders are said to pray to the Holy Spirit for guidence and they share it with us for us to pray upon also.
and we are to check what they say against the scriptures. If what a man or woman says does not match what the the Bible says, then they are wrong. [/b]
Ronda: Baptism and The Lord's Supper are the ONLY ones mentioned in the Bible.
marysia: actually, imo that is incorrect. confirmation is basically as Pentacost - asking the Holy Spirit to come completely into our lives and direct ourselves. marraige was from the very beginning and holy orders is basically what Christ bestowed upon His apostles and disciples. in 1 corinthains 12 we're told some will be 1,2,3rdteachers, leaders prophets...
Confirmation can not be compared to Pentecost. The disicples were praying together. It says nothing about them asking God to send the Holy Spirit. Jesus instructed them all to wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them to proceed with evangelizing the world. The Holy Spirit comes with Salvation. It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ for Salvation. [/b]
Ronda: So the Holy Council of Trent's decisions are now placed above the Bible. If it is not in the Bible.....then decisions are man's not God's.
marysia: the trent is based upon the bible and the interprutation they were guided to byt th Holy Spirit.
then why does some it NOT match with the Bible.[/b]
Ronda: Where does the Bible give man authority to decide a person should be called a saint and be venerated. Acutally all beleivers can be referred to as saints of God.
marysia: we are all saints, however there are those who have become leaders, even in this day in age. these are people, such as mother theresa, who haveshown us through their unfailing trust in the Lord and living every day for God in the most charitable or "maryterable" way that yes, we too can live as the Lord instructed us. they are just modern examples. i feel they are much more worthy of being examples to children than ball players and things as such.
You still have not shown where the Bible says man can bestow the honor of veneration on humans.[/b]
Ronda: THe church is not JUST the Catholic church....when the Bible talks about the church, the Bride of Christ, it is referring to ALL Christians......not just Catholics.
marysia: that is correct and the catechism says the same - we say ourselves - one baptism for the forgieness of sins. there is one baptism and it is this baptism in the Lord that makes us all brothers & sisters in Christ.
That's not what most catholics I know say. Mel Gibson would surely disagree with you. That is not the original post in this thread states either.[/b]
Ronda: No one denomination is the only the true church. The TRUE church consists of all believers who have received Christ as their Saviour.
marysia: again, the catechism says the same.
again, I refer you to the opening post of this thread. Your statements are oppositite of what it says. [/b]
Ronda: We are to put our faith in the Bible, not what men may come up with. The Bible also warns about adding to or taking away from it.
marysia: we are all persuaded by "men" that have interprutated the bible - as none of us read it in raw form - we're all reading a "man's" translation. i believe that there are people - many are on the board with us now, that have a very powerful insight to certian teachings of the bible. many have studied much more than I and therefore i welcome their ideas on various subjects. even when i disagree, they prod me to research and pray to find my own "why's"
We should also check teachings with what the Bible says. When there is NO scriptual basis for the teaching, then it's not Biblical. When Paul preached in one city.....his listeners checked what he said against the scriptures. [/b]
Ronda: The Bible says in Romans ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. NOT just catholics.
marysia: that is correct...
agian, the text of the original post contradicts your statement.[/b]
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 15, 2004 11:46:47 GMT -5
Ronda: Hmmm, the Bible says the HOLY SPIRIT leads us in interpretation of the scriptures.....not the church.marysia: the church leaders are said to pray to the Holy Spirit for guidence and they share it with us for us to pray upon also. and we are to check what they say against the scriptures. If what a man or woman says does not match what the the Bible says, then they are wrong. [/b] Ronda: Baptism and The Lord's Supper are the ONLY ones mentioned in the Bible. marysia: actually, imo that is incorrect. confirmation is basically as Pentacost - asking the Holy Spirit to come completely into our lives and direct ourselves. marraige was from the very beginning and holy orders is basically what Christ bestowed upon His apostles and disciples. in 1 corinthains 12 we're told some will be 1,2,3rdteachers, leaders prophets... Confirmation can not be compared to Pentecost. The disicples were praying together. It says nothing about them asking God to send the Holy Spirit. Jesus instructed them all to wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them to proceed with evangelizing the world. The Holy Spirit comes with Salvation. It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ for Salvation. [/b] Ronda: So the Holy Council of Trent's decisions are now placed above the Bible. If it is not in the Bible.....then decisions are man's not God's.marysia: the trent is based upon the bible and the interprutation they were guided to byt th Holy Spirit. then why does some it NOT match with the Bible.[/b] Ronda: Where does the Bible give man authority to decide a person should be called a saint and be venerated. Acutally all beleivers can be referred to as saints of God. marysia: we are all saints, however there are those who have become leaders, even in this day in age. these are people, such as mother theresa, who haveshown us through their unfailing trust in the Lord and living every day for God in the most charitable or "maryterable" way that yes, we too can live as the Lord instructed us. they are just modern examples. i feel they are much more worthy of being examples to children than ball players and things as such. You still have not shown where the Bible says man can bestow the honor of veneration on humans.[/b] Ronda: THe church is not JUST the Catholic church....when the Bible talks about the church, the Bride of Christ, it is referring to ALL Christians......not just Catholics.marysia: that is correct and the catechism says the same - we say ourselves - one baptism for the forgieness of sins. there is one baptism and it is this baptism in the Lord that makes us all brothers & sisters in Christ. That's not what most catholics I know say. Mel Gibson would surely disagree with you. That is not the original post in this thread states either.[/b] Ronda: No one denomination is the only the true church. The TRUE church consists of all believers who have received Christ as their Saviour. marysia: again, the catechism says the same. again, I refer you to the opening post of this thread. Your statements are oppositite of what it says. [/b] Ronda: We are to put our faith in the Bible, not what men may come up with. The Bible also warns about adding to or taking away from it.marysia: we are all persuaded by "men" that have interprutated the bible - as none of us read it in raw form - we're all reading a "man's" translation. i believe that there are people - many are on the board with us now, that have a very powerful insight to certian teachings of the bible. many have studied much more than I and therefore i welcome their ideas on various subjects. even when i disagree, they prod me to research and pray to find my own "why's" We should also check teachings with what the Bible says. When there is NO scriptual basis for the teaching, then it's not Biblical. When Paul preached in one city.....his listeners checked what he said against the scriptures.
[/b] Ronda: The Bible says in Romans ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. NOT just catholics.marysia: that is correct... agian, the text of the original post contradicts your statement.[/b] [/quote] Ronda, As realist posted, this is a very old creed for priests that is no longer in use. As for the sacraments, they are all biblical and supported by scripture. In the index of the catholic bible if you look up sacraments, each is listed with the books, chapters and verses that support it. They are also listed in the catechism of the catholic church which are the teachings of the RCC. As for the RCC being the TRUE church, you are looking at that statement (as most noncatholics do), from the wrong perspective. By true church, the statement means that it is the church that is more full from the perspective of using all of the sacraments. The RCC is the only church that uses all 7 sacraments (which as stated above are supported in the bible). It does not mean and never has that only catholics will be saved. The catechism does state that any who accept Jesus Christ as their savior are members of the body of Christ, the church. As for Mel Gibson, I saw an interview with him where he stated that we are all called to be saints, which seems to contradict what you are saying, or am I misunderstanding you? Blessings, Ann
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Post by AuntRonda on Mar 15, 2004 15:45:07 GMT -5
Ronda, As realist posted, this is a very old creed for priests that is no longer in use. Okay......wonder why it's still on the net. Being that I don't have a Catholic Bible....how about listing them here....... That is not the attitude of a lot of the catholics I've met. In one of the pkmtyolpion threads someone posted a link in which Mel emphaticly states that he does not think non Catholics will be in heaven......including his own wife. Edited to include link..... www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4224452/Ronda
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Post by marysia on Mar 15, 2004 17:31:33 GMT -5
ronda -- Okay......wonder why it's still on the net. me -- ronda come on now, that's a really silly retort coming from you. not what i expected. there are many things from the past that can be found on the net. bet you can find something about USSR and the berlin wall as well. even though they are no longer in use. for that fact auswitz as well. ronda -- Being that I don't have a Catholic Bible....how about listing them here....... me -- catholic bible, only real difference is the 7 additional books. for example, let's take james 2:24 & 26 KJV - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. "catholic" bible - see how a person us justified by works and not faith alone. fir just as a body without a spirit is dead so also faith without works is dead. BTW - you don't think marriage was instituted by God and should be upheld? ronda -- That is not the attitude of a lot of the catholics I've met. me -- this is straight from the vatican website - www.vatican.vaParagraph 2. THE CHURCH - PEOPLE OF GOD, BODY OF CHRIST, TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT I. THE CHURCH - PEOPLE OF GOD 781 "At all times and in every race, anyone who fears God and does what is right has been acceptable to him. He has, however, willed to make men holy and save them, not as individuals without any bond or link between them, but rather to make them into a people who might acknowledge him and serve him in holiness. He therefore chose the Israelite race to be his own people and established a covenant with it. He gradually instructed this people.... All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit."201 Characteristics of the People of Got 782 The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history: - It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."202 - One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being "born anew," a birth "of water and the Spirit,"203 that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism. - This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is "the messianic people." - "The status of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple." - "Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."204 This is the "new" law of the Holy Spirit.205 - Its mission is to be salt of the earth and light of the world.206 This people is "a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race." -Its destiny, finally, "is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time."207 (201 LG 9; Cf. Ë Acts 10:35; Ë 1 Cor 11:25. 202 Ë 1 Pet 2:9. 203 Ë Jn 3:3-5. 204 Cf. Ë Jn 13 34 205 Ë Rom 8:2; Ë Gal 5:25. 206 Cf. Ë Mt 5:13-16. 207 LG 9 # 2.) i'm sorry you've meet people who are not living their lives as true christians. Ronda
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Post by AuntRonda on Mar 15, 2004 18:02:06 GMT -5
ronda -- Okay......wonder why it's still on the net. me -- ronda come on now, that's a really silly retort coming from you. not what i expected. there are many things from the past that can be found on the net. bet you can find something about USSR and the berlin wall as well. even though they are no longer in use. for that fact auswitz as well. It was a tongue in cheek comment. I am in a strange mood of late. Having someone very dear to you dying can really screw up your moods.ronda -- Being that I don't have a Catholic Bible....how about listing them here....... me -- catholic bible, only real difference is the 7 additional books. for example, let's take james 2:24 & 26 KJV - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. There are also verses in Romans (I think) that state we are NOT save or justified by works alone."catholic" bible - see how a person us justified by works and not faith alone. fir just as a body without a spirit is dead so also faith without works is dead. BTW - you don't think marriage was instituted by God and should be upheld? Never said it was not. According to Catholics it is one of the sacrements by which they may be saved. I don't think being married is required for salvation. I happen to be quite happy single. In fact, in some ways, being single over the years has allowed me more freedom in serving God. I would love to be married, just haven't found the right man God has for me yet.ronda -- That is not the attitude of a lot of the catholics I've met. me -- this is straight from the vatican website - www.vatican.vaParagraph 2. THE CHURCH - PEOPLE OF GOD, BODY OF CHRIST, TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT I. THE CHURCH - PEOPLE OF GOD 781 "At all times and in every race, anyone who fears God and does what is right has been acceptable to him. He has, however, willed to make men holy and save them, not as individuals without any bond or link between them, but rather to make them into a people who might acknowledge him and serve him in holiness. He therefore chose the Israelite race to be his own people and established a covenant with it. He gradually instructed this people.... All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit."201 Characteristics of the People of Got people of Got?? ......I know it's a typo......I needed a little humor......grief can be dampened by humor. 782 The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history: - It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."202 - One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being "born anew," a birth "of water and the Spirit,"203 that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism. - This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is "the messianic people." - "The status of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple." - "Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."204 This is the "new" law of the Holy Spirit.205 - Its mission is to be salt of the earth and light of the world.206 This people is "a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race." -Its destiny, finally, "is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time."207 i'm sorry you've meet people who are not living their lives as true christians. You are missing what I wanted.
I want Scriptural proofs for
Celibacy......Peter was married.
Infant baptism
The fact that Infant baptism brings salvation.
Confirmation automaticly brings the Holy Spirit.....which is given at the time of Salvation.
Last Rites......or what ever they call them now days.
Ronda
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 15, 2004 23:00:57 GMT -5
Okay......wonder why it's still on the net. LOL, won't even dignify that one!Being that I don't have a Catholic Bible....how about listing them here....... Actually, I did find a site that listed all of the sacraments and the scriptures that supported them, but need to search for it again. I know that at least twice it was listed on the LeftBehind boards, but will find it again and post it.
I did not find the one that I wanted, but here is a link discussing them all:
www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp
That is not the attitude of a lot of the catholics I've met. Guess ALL of the people in your church do not sin and are ALL devout Christians....hmmm.In one of the pkmtyolpion threads someone posted a link in which Mel emphaticly states that he does not think non Catholics will be in heaven......including his own wife. Edited to include link..... www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4224452/I read that article when posted before, but also saw the interview where he said that all are called to be saints. Each person has his own opinions, Mel Gibson does not speak for the RCC, btw. He speaks for himself and his beliefs. To find out what the catholic church teaches, read the catechism.Ronda Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 15, 2004 23:49:53 GMT -5
ronda -- Okay......wonder why it's still on the net. me -- ronda come on now, that's a really silly retort coming from you. not what i expected. there are many things from the past that can be found on the net. bet you can find something about USSR and the berlin wall as well. even though they are no longer in use. for that fact auswitz as well. It was a tongue in cheek comment. I am in a strange mood of late. Having someone very dear to you dying can really screw up your moods.ronda -- Being that I don't have a Catholic Bible....how about listing them here....... me -- catholic bible, only real difference is the 7 additional books. for example, let's take james 2:24 & 26 KJV - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. There are also verses in Romans (I think) that state we are NOT save or justified by works alone."catholic" bible - see how a person us justified by works and not faith alone. fir just as a body without a spirit is dead so also faith without works is dead. Yes, NOT BY WORKS ALONE, you stated it yourself. So what is your point? The RCC teaches both faith and works.BTW - you don't think marriage was instituted by God and should be upheld? Never said it was not. According to Catholics it is one of the sacrements by which they may be saved. I don't think being married is required for salvation. I happen to be quite happy single. In fact, in some ways, being single over the years has allowed me more freedom in serving God. I would love to be married, just haven't found the right man God has for me yet.You are once again mislead by someone who does not understand the teachings of the RCC.ronda -- That is not the attitude of a lot of the catholics I've met. me -- this is straight from the vatican website - www.vatican.vaParagraph 2. THE CHURCH - PEOPLE OF GOD, BODY OF CHRIST, TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT I. THE CHURCH - PEOPLE OF GOD 781 "At all times and in every race, anyone who fears God and does what is right has been acceptable to him. He has, however, willed to make men holy and save them, not as individuals without any bond or link between them, but rather to make them into a people who might acknowledge him and serve him in holiness. He therefore chose the Israelite race to be his own people and established a covenant with it. He gradually instructed this people.... All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit."201 Characteristics of the People of Got people of Got?? ......I know it's a typo......I needed a little humor......grief can be dampened by humor. Sorry to hear about your loss.782 The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history: - It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."202 - One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being "born anew," a birth "of water and the Spirit,"203 that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism. - This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is "the messianic people." - "The status of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple." - "Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."204 This is the "new" law of the Holy Spirit.205 - Its mission is to be salt of the earth and light of the world.206 This people is "a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race." -Its destiny, finally, "is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time."207 i'm sorry you've meet people who are not living their lives as true christians. You are missing what I wanted.
I want Scriptural proofs for
Celibacy......Peter was married.
and Paul was not. The RCC does not force men to become priests and does not force them to stay priests. It is a decision they make on their own. They also know before even contemplating the priesthood about the celibacy, btw. It is not a secret, ya know.
Infant baptism
The fact that Infant baptism brings salvation.
Confirmation automaticly brings the Holy Spirit.....which is given at the time of Salvation.
Last Rites......or what ever they call them now days.
Please see the link that I provided on my other post. Ronda
Blessings, Ann
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Post by genesda on Mar 16, 2004 4:54:10 GMT -5
THE ACCEPTED ROMAN CATHOLIC CREED Creed of Pope Pius IV (1559-1566) To the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Pius IV added the fourteen points listed below. The largest "Catholic Encyclopedia" pkmtyolped by the ecclesiastical censors and to be found in the central public libraries of New York and Los Angeles says: "Profession of faith drawn up after the Council of Trent by Pius IV, whose public recital has always been required by Aspirants before their promotion to ecclesiastical offices." 1. I most firmly admit and embrace Apostolical and Ecclesiastical Traditions, and all other constitutions and observations of the same church. 2. I also admit the Sacred Scriptures according to the sense which the Holy Mother Church has held, and does hold, to whom it belongs to judge the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, nor will I ever take or interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers. 3. I profess, also, that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and for the salvation of mankind, though not all are necessary for every one; namely, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Orders, cannot be reiterated without sacrilege. 4. I receive and admit the Ceremonies of the Catholic Church, received and approved by the solemn administration of all the above said Sacraments. 5. I receive and embrace all and every one of the things which have been defined in the Holy Council of Trent, concerning original sin and justification. 6. I profess, likewise, that in the pkmtyolm is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiary sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the holy sacrament there is truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; and there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, which conversion the Church calls transubstantiation. 7. I confess, also that under either kind alone, whole and entire, Christ and a true Sacrament are received. 8. I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that souls detained there are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. 9. Likewise, that the saints reigning together with Christ are to be honored and invoked; that they offer prayers to God for us and that their relics are to be venerated. 10. I most firmly assert, that the images of Christ and the Mother of God ever-Virgin, and also of the other saints, are to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them. 11. I also affirm, that the power of Indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people. 12. I acknowledge the Holy Catholic and Apostolical Roman Church, the Mother and Mistress of all Churches, and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Bishop, the successor of St. Peter the Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Jesus Christ. 13. I also profess and undoubtedly receive all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the Sacred Canons and General Councils, and particularly by the Council of Trent; and likewise, I also condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies whatsoever, condemned, rejected, and anathematized by the Church. 14. The true Catholic faith, out of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess, and truly hold, I, _____, promise, vow, and swear most constantly to hold and profess the same, whole and entire, with God's assistance, to the end of my life and to procure as far as lies in my power, that the same shall be held, taught, and preached by all who are under me, or are entrusted to my care by virtue of my office, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God. Council Trid. apud Bullas, p. 381, et esq., Romae, 1564 The above translation is given by Charles Butler, an ardent English Roman Catholic, in his work "The Book of the Roman Catholic Church" p. 5 which work is listed as "ZMX pv 1" in the New York Central Public Library. The above 14 points constitute a mild statement of Roman Catholic errors whose number is legion. This isn't all they're required to believe. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Mar 16, 2004 4:57:23 GMT -5
Only Catholics can go to heaven. 14. The true Catholic faith, out of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess, and truly hold, I, _____, promise, vow, and swear most constantly to hold and profess the same, whole and entire, with God's assistance, to the end of my life and to procure as far as lies in my power, that the same shall be held, taught, and preached by all who are under me, or are entrusted to my care by virtue of my office, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God. This paragraph doesn't define "Catholic". God's church is "Catholic" but Roman catholics will argue that this doesn't mean only Roman catholics, while I do believe this, written by the Roman church applies only to it. There's other writings saying that all must submit to the authority of the papacy. Your paragraph alone doesn't define "Catholic". [/color]
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Post by genesda on Mar 16, 2004 5:06:03 GMT -5
Ronda, As realist posted, this is a very old creed for priests that is no longer in use. As for the sacraments, they are all biblical and supported by scripture. In the index of the catholic bible if you look up sacraments, each is listed with the books, chapters and verses that support it. Not as professed by the Roman church they aren't. [/color] As for the RCC being the TRUE church, you are looking at that statement (as most noncatholics do), from the wrong perspective. By true church, the statement means that it is the church that is more full from the perspective of using all of the sacraments. Baloney! The Roman church has always considered itself as the "ONLY" true church and all others as imposters. [/color] The RCC is the only church that uses all 7 sacraments (which as stated above are supported in the bible). Again, not as defined in scripture. [/color] It does not mean and never has that only catholics will be saved. This is what your church has said. [/color] The catechism does state that any who accept Jesus Christ as their savior are members of the body of Christ, the church. Maybe now they do, but have never admitted any wrong declarations of the past, and as soon as the Rcc regains it's power, it will resort to the original position. [/color] As for Mel Gibson, I saw an interview with him where he stated that we are all called to be saints, which seems to contradict what you are saying, or am I misunderstanding you? Blessings, Ann Mel is biblically correct when speaking about those who accept and follow Christ. [/color]
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Post by marysia on Mar 16, 2004 8:59:33 GMT -5
ronda -- Okay......wonder why it's still on the net. me -- ronda come on now, that's a really silly retort coming from you. not what i expected. there are many things from the past that can be found on the net. bet you can find something about USSR and the berlin wall as well. even though they are no longer in use. for that fact auswitz as well. It was a tongue in cheek comment. I am in a strange mood of late. Having someone very dear to you dying can really screw up your moods. oh ronda - i'm so sorry for your loss. something seemed off with that comment. i can respect and even possibly understand. God bless and keep you during your time of grief.ronda -- Being that I don't have a Catholic Bible....how about listing them here....... me -- catholic bible, only real difference is the 7 additional books. for example, let's take james 2:24 & 26 KJV - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. There are also verses in Romans (I think) that state we are NOT save or justified by works alone."catholic" bible - see how a person us justified by works and not faith alone. fir just as a body without a spirit is dead so also faith without works is dead. you'd implied a major difference between the catholic and non catholic bibles. just pointing out a verse i had on hand...BTW - you don't think marriage was instituted by God and should be upheld? Never said it was not. According to Catholics it is one of the sacrements by which they may be saved. I don't think being married is required for salvation. I happen to be quite happy single. In fact, in some ways, being single over the years has allowed me more freedom in serving God. I would love to be married, just haven't found the right man God has for me yet. ronda - marriage itself isn't a way of salvation however -- from what i've been told -- a good marriage, gracious let me see if i can explain, my times limited but... if a man and woman were to marry outside a church they would generally not be inclined to be christians or faithful to God. this is not all people however... a marriage from God IS a blessing and is a strengthing. i too am single and believe that that too can be a "calling" - not all people will be married. a marraige blessed by God and taking marriage and the vows seriously IS a blessing. it's considered a sacrament because it was something God instituted in the bible. He created marriage between a man and a woman. ronda -- That is not the attitude of a lot of the catholics I've met. me -- this is straight from the vatican website - www.vatican.vaParagraph 2. THE CHURCH - PEOPLE OF GOD, BODY OF CHRIST, TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT people of Got?? ......I know it's a typo......I needed a little humor......grief can be dampened by humor. yeah noticed that and though i'd leave it -- levity can ease a situation i do agree!i'm sorry you've meet people who are not living their lives as true christians. You are missing what I wanted.
I want Scriptural proofs for
Celibacy......Peter was married.
Infant baptism
The fact that Infant baptism brings salvation.
Confirmation automaticly brings the Holy Spirit.....which is given at the time of Salvation.
Last Rites......or what ever they call them now days.
Ronda
in regards to the other items, i'm sorry i'd not seem those questions, i do apologize. however you can check out the vatican's website for more exacting details. one thing -- no matter what people call them - sacraments, rites of pkmtyolpage, whatnot - they are nothing without faith. a child can be baptized but can walk away from their faith. a teen can make their confirmation, learn all he/she is to learn and pray, but if it's without earnest, it's nothing. any Rcc can sit at pkmtyolm or go to a confessional and get nothing from God - it's their choice. the celebacy issue is one of choice. there are also married priests, those divorced with children and so on.
please accept my sympathies again on your loss.
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 16, 2004 11:41:34 GMT -5
THE ACCEPTED ROMAN CATHOLIC CREED Creed of Pope Pius IV (1559-1566) To the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Pius IV added the fourteen points listed below. The largest "Catholic Encyclopedia" pkmtyolped by the ecclesiastical censors and to be found in the central public libraries of New York and Los Angeles says: "Profession of faith drawn up after the Council of Trent by Pius IV, whose public recital has always been required by Aspirants before their promotion to ecclesiastical offices." 1. I most firmly admit and embrace Apostolical and Ecclesiastical Traditions, and all other constitutions and observations of the same church. 2. I also admit the Sacred Scriptures according to the sense which the Holy Mother Church has held, and does hold, to whom it belongs to judge the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, nor will I ever take or interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers. 3. I profess, also, that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and for the salvation of mankind, though not all are necessary for every one; namely, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Orders, cannot be reiterated without sacrilege. 4. I receive and admit the Ceremonies of the Catholic Church, received and approved by the solemn administration of all the above said Sacraments. 5. I receive and embrace all and every one of the things which have been defined in the Holy Council of Trent, concerning original sin and justification. 6. I profess, likewise, that in the pkmtyolm is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiary sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the holy sacrament there is truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; and there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, which conversion the Church calls transubstantiation. 7. I confess, also that under either kind alone, whole and entire, Christ and a true Sacrament are received. 8. I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that souls detained there are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. 9. Likewise, that the saints reigning together with Christ are to be honored and invoked; that they offer prayers to God for us and that their relics are to be venerated. 10. I most firmly assert, that the images of Christ and the Mother of God ever-Virgin, and also of the other saints, are to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them. 11. I also affirm, that the power of Indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people. 12. I acknowledge the Holy Catholic and Apostolical Roman Church, the Mother and Mistress of all Churches, and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Bishop, the successor of St. Peter the Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Jesus Christ. 13. I also profess and undoubtedly receive all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the Sacred Canons and General Councils, and particularly by the Council of Trent; and likewise, I also condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies whatsoever, condemned, rejected, and anathematized by the Church. 14. The true Catholic faith, out of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess, and truly hold, I, _____, promise, vow, and swear most constantly to hold and profess the same, whole and entire, with God's assistance, to the end of my life and to procure as far as lies in my power, that the same shall be held, taught, and preached by all who are under me, or are entrusted to my care by virtue of my office, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God. Council Trid. apud Bullas, p. 381, et esq., Romae, 1564 The above translation is given by Charles Butler, an ardent English Roman Catholic, in his work "The Book of the Roman Catholic Church" p. 5 which work is listed as "ZMX pv 1" in the New York Central Public Library. The above 14 points constitute a mild statement of Roman Catholic errors whose number is legion. This isn't all they're required to believe. [/color][/quote] Oopsy gene, Notice the date at the very top of the page, today's date. I think you slipped back into the past again. This is 2004. You might want to see the "Profession of Faith" today which is pretty much the same as the Apostle's Creed. Blessings, Ann
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Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 16, 2004 11:51:55 GMT -5
Ronda, As realist posted, this is a very old creed for priests that is no longer in use. As for the sacraments, they are all biblical and supported by scripture. In the index of the catholic bible if you look up sacraments, each is listed with the books, chapters and verses that support it. Not as professed by the Roman church they aren't. [/color] Guess you would have to read the catechism to know that, have you done if they do, done that yet?As for the RCC being the TRUE church, you are looking at that statement (as most noncatholics do), from the wrong perspective. By true church, the statement means that it is the church that is more full from the perspective of using all of the sacraments. Baloney! The Roman church has always considered itself as the "ONLY" true church and all others as imposters. [/color] And would know that how, you have not done YOUR OWN research on the church, just parroting what you have been told by the SDA.] The RCC is the only church that uses all 7 sacraments (which as stated above are supported in the bible). Again, not as defined in scripture. [/color] Again, see the index in the catholic bible and it lists book, chapter and verses for each sacrament It does not mean and never has that only catholics will be saved. This is what your church has said. [/color] Again, how would you know since you refuse to see what the RCC says itself The catechism does state that any who accept Jesus Christ as their savior are members of the body of Christ, the church. Maybe now they do, but have never admitted any wrong declarations of the past, and as soon as the Rcc regains it's power, it will resort to the original position. [/color] Their original position is what I have state, not the hearsay that you have stated.As for Mel Gibson, I saw an interview with him where he stated that we are all called to be saints, which seems to contradict what you are saying, or am I misunderstanding you? Blessings, Ann Mel is biblically correct when speaking about those who accept and follow Christ. [/color][/quote] As is the RCC when they state the same thing..
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