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Post by SonWorshiper on Dec 12, 2003 23:25:30 GMT -5
kee,
How have you been? Oh, how I've missed responding to your misrepresentations of my posts. Well, not really.
Anyway, allow me to clarify and clear up your confusion:
1. Indeed, Christians do not have to die to know God, nor His Truth. His Spirit lives within all who come to His Son by faith.
Yet, The Bible teaches this in II Corinthians 5:6, "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord..." And Paul wrote of his desire to depart and "to be with Christ, which is far better." (Philippians 1:23).
So, while we indeed love and cherish this life and desire to live it for His glory, we know and are excited about what lies ahead for us after this life.
2. Non-Christians do not have this hope, nor can they know God now, or after they die. But, sadly, after it is too late, they will know the truth, the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord.
3. To wish and hope and chant for the human race's end huh? You mean, you gathered all that from my post to Heathen? Do you mind sharing how you got all this? Maybe you're clairvoyant. But if you are, you might need to trade in your "spirit" for a more accurate one, because I have not wished and hoped and chanted for the human race's end.
What I have wished and hoped for (but certainly not "chanted") is what is on the other side of this life, and that is getting to finally see my Saviour as He is, face to face, and without the human limitations we are bound by now. That is what I meant when I said, "I hasten to see that day." I don't know how you could have construed my words to say I "wished and hoped and chanted for the human race's end."
Of course, and in my human weakness, I do look forward to the day when ardent Christ-rejectors will bow their knee to Jesus. But, I would much rather see them bow it now, willingly, before they die, rather than being forced to bow, after they die.
You still haven't bowed your knee to Jesus have you? It's still not to late. Why don't you do it willingly now, before you are forced to later? One way or the other, you are going to bow to Jesus. Why not do it now and receive life?
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Post by kkawohl on Dec 13, 2003 0:28:47 GMT -5
SonWorshiper,
You are as much of a religious fanatic as many Muslims are. They pray 5 times daily. I will assume you surpkmtyolp that...but if it gives you comfort...great...but please visit a psychiatrist soon.
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Post by heathen76 on Dec 13, 2003 0:30:44 GMT -5
Heathen, Your belief that my beliefs are just my beliefs is just your belief. For that matter, my belief that your beliefs that my beliefs are just your beliefs is just my belief. For once, we agree. That's fine, except you don't have to die to experience a union with all that is.
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Post by babysis on Dec 13, 2003 1:01:19 GMT -5
SonWorshiper, You are as much of a religious fanatic as many Muslims are. They pray 5 times daily. I will assume you surpkmtyolp that...but if it gives you comfort...great...but please visit a psychiatrist soon. Insults are not welcome here. Please refrain from doing so.
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Post by babysis on Dec 13, 2003 1:03:34 GMT -5
Until Jesus’ baptism by John at about the age of 30 he had been an obscure carpenter from Galilee. But the baptism marked the turning point in his life - he began to believe he could be the Messiah and he now had a mission. If Jesus were born now would people believe that he was God ? Jesus, Abraham, Moses, etc. are alive as spirit and they are now a part of God. They will NOT return to earth. They were messengers who interpreted their spirits interaction with the Spirit of God according to their own interpretation thereof. Messengers are insignificant and should not be deified; the message has merit but also is open to misinterpretation by the messenger, hence we have religious divergence. Jesus never "began to believe He could be Messiah. Jesus always was and always will be Messiah. He was preaching in temples when He was still young. He didn't wait until right before He was crucified to begin His preaching.
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Post by kkawohl on Dec 13, 2003 4:35:41 GMT -5
Jesus died about 30 A.D.. Mark's Gospel presents Jesus as a perfectly normal man with brothers and sisters. Luke's Gospel suggests that Jesus and John The Baptist were actually related. Jesus' teachings stressed love, charity and peace. After his death Jesus' disciples believed that Jesus presented an image of God and began to pray to him. St. Paul believed that God's powers should be made accessible to the goyim (gentiles, non-Jews) and preached the Gospel of Jesus to them. Paul never called Jesus "God". He called him "the Son of God" in its Jewish sense; he did not preach that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself but that he possessed God's "powers" and "Spirit" which manifested God's activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.
Paul created Christianity by referring to Jesus as Christ which was a translation of the Hebrew "Messiach". This doctrine was scandalized by Jews and later the Muslims who found it blasphemous. The doctrine that Jesus was divine and that Jesus had been God in human form was not finalized until the fourth century.
In order to be in harmony with the Spirit of God, one's spirit has to be in synchronization. This requires understanding and tolerance of other beliefs regardless of our own. Understanding and tolerance of others does not require our approval.
The unity of God is an intertwined intelligence. Pure, real intelligence can overcome all diversity and exist in unity. By condemning others who do not believe the same as one personally does about Jesus, such as the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, one is risking the survival of one's own soul.
Jesus, Abraham, Moses, etc. are alive as spirit and a part of God. They were messengers who interpreted their spirits interaction with the Spirit of God according to their own interpretation thereof. Messengers are insignificant and should not be deified; the message has merit but also is open to misinterpretation by the messenger, hence we have religious divergence.
The Dead Sea Scrolls offer unprecedented information about Jewish religious and political life in Palestine during the turbulent late Second Temple Period (200 B.C. to A.D. 70), a time of great corruption and conflict under Roman rule in Palestine. Scholars estimate that the Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden in A.D. 68, when Roman legions reached the Dead Sea during the emperor Vespasian's campaign to Jericho.
The scrolls also shed light on the time when Jesus and John the Baptist lived and early Christians began to organize. Specifically, they offer evidence that early Christian beliefs and practices had precedents in the Jewish sects of the time. Sectarian scrolls tell of people who, like the early Christians, did not believe in the Temple worship of the Pharisees, people who had their own literature, their own rituals-including baptism-and their own beliefs, most significantly beliefs in a messiah, a divine judgment, and an apocalypse. Three different scrolls depict a sacred meal of bread and wine. These similarities as well as parallels between the literary style of certain scrolls and that of the New Testament have led some scholars to claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were either part of or strongly influenced by a sect at the Dead Sea.
Debate has furthered speculation about the historical Jesus, such as the claim that he was a Zealot rather than a pacifist, a theory that does not fit with New Testament tradition but does fit with the history of this period. And one of the most important discoveries in the scrolls has been the use of the name Son of God to refer to someone other than Jesus, implying a cultural use of the term that was not itself synonymous with God.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Dec 13, 2003 12:17:52 GMT -5
kkawohl,
Thank you for assuming I am a man of prayer. I must be doing something right. ;D
You seem to be a disciple of the "theologians" of The Jesus Seminar. If not you certainly share many of their beliefs about Jesus.
Question: Are your posts a product of cutting and pasting? No matter, because either way, you're just plain wrong. Paul did claim Jesus is God (Colossians 1:15-16). He did also in I Timothy 3:16. Furthermore, Revelation 1:8 states, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Now, let's go back to the Old Testament. Zechariah 2:10 should remove all doubt who Jesus is: "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord."
Scripture further states in Zechariah 12:10b, "...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
And finally, Isaiah 9:7 writes, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
Going back to the New Testament, let's look at Revelation 19:13, "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." Now, if you turn to John 1:1-14, you'll find that The Word was with God and The Word was God. And that The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten Son of God.
Matthew 1:23 also declares the deity of Jesus Christ by calling His Name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
So you see, right from the very beginning (and throughout all eternity past and future), Jesus Christ was, and is, and will continue to be God. Nothing will ever change this truth.
And yes, I am a fanatic about Jesus Christ. Thanks for noticing! ;D But, once again that's not my problem. My problem is not being enough of a fanatic for I declare that one cannot get too fanatical about The One who took the sins of the world, and willingly became the object of hatred of His dearly beloved Father, so that I and many others could be reconciled to God!!!!
Sincerely, SonWorshiper
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Post by mook2357 on Dec 13, 2003 13:48:08 GMT -5
kkawohl, welcome to the boards, fascinating thread... I don't have anything to add, because so far you are covering all the points I normally am covering with SonWorshipper and others ... But I am enjoying the read, and you seem to have a better way of saying these things... Hope to get into many discussions with you! I too am at the other board linked early in this thread...have you come over there yet?
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Post by keikikoka on Dec 13, 2003 19:10:02 GMT -5
Kkawohl, why are you using parts of the bible then ignoring others to accomplish your own purpose? You accept the bible's record of people existing, such as moses, but then ignore the bible regarding what happens to them.
Why do you do that?
The bible, and specifically Paul, does teach Jesus as the incarnate God. I suggest reading the book of phillipians if you disagree. It is also taught in the first chapter John. It is prophecised in the old testament.
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Post by Kee on Dec 13, 2003 21:35:58 GMT -5
One need not be dead to meet Christ, if they are alive when Christ returns to the earth. The Christ-within....I know it well, AND so do you!! It is ALIVE and right now -- this very moment! You just won't admit that other people who are non-Christian know it too, babysis ;D And believe me... I understand the dilema of it for you or others. Your religion forbids you to admit such a thing -- even if it rings true to you down to the very depth and core of your inner most feeling and being. Convenient planning on the part of the organized Church. There-in lies my advantage in this. The freedom from dogma that removes the veil. It's a hard thing to part with, but I must tell you -- only FEAR holds you to it. Release the fear, escape the trap, and then you are simply admitting what you already knew within yourself!!
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Post by Kee on Dec 13, 2003 22:06:03 GMT -5
Kkawohl, why are you using parts of the bible then ignoring others to accomplish your own purpose? Hi keikikoka! You surely realize that some Christians do this all the time?? I know you must, your present company excluded of course! Ahh Phillipians.... one of the most insightful verses can be found there. Phil :8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.I dare say if Paul had truly followed these words he wrote....he'd have had to kick out an awful lot of his own works (his own thoughts)! It's like he grasped it one moment, and the next he doesn't. But you know that's really the vehemence of his character shining through, seen both before and after conversion. When you take that into account, it's pretty easy to see why he always talked in extremes of the fears he held of his past, as well as his urgency that Christ was surely coming again before he died.
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Post by babysis on Dec 13, 2003 22:11:12 GMT -5
The Christ-within....I know it well, AND so do you!! It is ALIVE and right now -- this very moment! You just won't admit that other people who are non-Christian know it too, babysis ;D And believe me... I understand the dilema of it for you or others. Your religion forbids you to admit such a thing -- even if it rings true to you down to the very depth and core of your inner most feeling and being. Convenient planning on the part of the organized Church. There-in lies my advantage in this. The freedom from dogma that removes the veil. It's a hard thing to part with, but I must tell you -- only FEAR holds you to it. Release the fear, escape the trap, and then you are simply admitting what you already knew within yourself!! Good thing I don't belong to any organized church or fear-based beliefs. I am free in Christ Jesus. Free from the punishment for my sins through His saving blood. Christ died so I wouldn't have to be tied down, so I wouldn't have to fear. And it is because of that very reason that I have no fear. My relationship with Christ doesn't FORBID me from doing anything. I can do anything I please, but I also have to accept that what I do or say has consequences. Everything we do and say has consequences. I could say what you want me to "admit". I'd be lying, but I'm not forbidden to say it.
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Post by Kee on Dec 13, 2003 22:31:17 GMT -5
kee, How have you been? Oh, how I've missed responding to your misrepresentations of my posts. Well, not really. Gosh, it's a good thing I have some experience with you Lam. Had I not, I might have thought you were sincere in asking me how I have been. Your suceeding comments clarify any surprise I might have momentarily felt in those first words however. ;D Oh I am just too curious. Tell me about this after-life you invision. What will you be doing that you think will be fulfilling for life ETERNAL? What do you conceive ETERNAL means? This is strictly something you BELIEVE. Where you have HOPE, I hold confidence and knowing. I simply commented on what YOU sound like. Sorry, but it is precisely how you all sound when you chant it. Then I would suggest you come up with something that conveys what you really mean, and perhaps stop using it everytime you are discussing something you don't approve of in the human race or other people. Understand what I mean? It is not only what you say, but WHEN and HOW you use it. Most revealing really- sorry. quote]Of course, and in my human weakness, I do look forward to the day when ardent Christ-rejectors will bow their knee to Jesus. [/quote] THIS is what you reveal as I was saying. No matter how you package it -- it rings through, I have much more faith in God than you do, and in man for that matter. There will be no armagedon. That table has already turned and too many are figuring out that we control that reality. We refuse the destiny you wish to impose on Earth. Sorry. Ha, ha, ha..... talking through your belief as though you have some knowledge of my experience will just never work hon. Never because you show how you don't know a flipping thing. You prove every time that all you have is belief. And that is the TRUTH!
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Post by Cohdra on Dec 14, 2003 13:35:51 GMT -5
Welcome to the board, Kurt! No matter what one experiences or dreams, the only thing that matters in life is: What have you done with God's Son, Jesus Christ?Not to discount your dreams or to say they weren't real, but the Bible is full of warnings against trusting in dreams and experiences. It is absolutely imperative that we trust in God's Word and His Ever-Living Son if we expect true enlightenment (to borrow a New Age term). All other "lights" are false lights. All other ways are false ways. And all other paths are false paths. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. And only through Him can you know God. And only through Him can you possess eternal life. Please ponder the amazing love of Jesus Christ and His amazing love for you that is found in His cross. Here is a prayer that can assist you in becoming born again: Dear Lord Jesus, I need You...I need Your grace to forgive me and I need Your love to change me. Thank You for Your amazing love...thank You for giving me life and eternity. But above all, thank You for dying on the cross for me. Now, I'm a Christian, which means You live in me. I belong to You, I will live my life for You and will love You forever. In Your precious name I pray, Amen."May God bless you on your spiritual journey! It also says, in the end times. Your children will dream dreams, etc So I think your taking the whole dream thing out of context. As for the experiences you had, kkawohl, I firmly believe you had OOBE's but I think you might be placing the wrong interpretation on them. There are RC visionaries that have had visions of hell. In one experience in particular, the BVM said many, many souls are streaming into hell everyday. I believe that some people that many say will not make to heaven actually do, because God judges us all individually, based on our knowledge and goodness, etc However, I also believe it is not true when someone says all you need to be is a peace-lover to attain heaven. If your a peace-nik that in other regards leads a morally loose life, I think you might have a problem; the narrow path is just that, very narrow. God bless
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Post by kkawohl on Dec 15, 2003 10:20:51 GMT -5
God, The Spirit. The Son. The Child.
Would God, who is like a father, be masochistic and derive pleasure from his child’s pain? Nay, I say. God is the supreme love and ultimate purity.
Would God or any father allow his Son to suffer and die if he had the power to stop the pain? Nay, I say. God is the supreme love and ultimate purity.
Would God or any father want his children to worship him, bow down to him, pray to him or tell the world how magnificent he is? Nay, I say. God is the supreme love and ultimate purity.
God Proclaims:
I am God, the God from the beginning of God. I did not come from nowhere. I play no magic tricks on man. I did not create the earth by casting spells.
I had a humble beginning the same as man, yet my beginning was at the dawn of spirituality.
My wisdom grows as more spirits unite after the cessation of life after much physical strife.
Throughout time I have been named God, Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, and many more.
I do not judge man for his or vanity naivety to be the one who claims to please me the most.
I am easy to please. I require very little. I only want you to do what is best for you.
I will bless you and wish you well. I will inspire your mind and you will accomplish the unfathomable.
I require no worship. I need nothing from man. I am self sufficient. I am spirit.
Develop your spirit wisely, the best that you can. Live your life for the betterment of man.
Your spirit will soon be with me and then together we will:
See and traverse the universe. There are many wonders to behold.
Your spirit will soar. You will partake in all the wisdom that been gathered from the beginning of time. The stars will be your playground.
You can play with the animals, be with your loved ones, listen to the greatest opera, stage or musical performances, or simply relax next to a bubbling brook and enjoy the scenery. You feel no pain, despair, heartache, or negative emotions.
You are One with me. You are with God.
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