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Post by Pietro on Apr 10, 2005 8:37:32 GMT -5
This debate deals with the words of Jesus regarding his flesh and blood and whether he is speaking symbolically or literally. I offer a few thoughts.
In the Gospel of John Jesus speaks symbolically when his disciples ask him if he is hungry:
4:31Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.” But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.” Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?”
The disciples think he is speaking literally and so Jesus corrects them:
34“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
In Matthew Jesus does this again in talking about the leaven of the Pharisees:
Mat 16 5When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread. “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
The disciples think he is talking literally:
They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn't bring any bread.”
Jesus corrects them:
8Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
This is very different than the Gospel of John
John 6 I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” 52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
People take him literally again but Jesus does not correct them. Instead he reinforces the literal meaning:
53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
AT this point disciples leave him because of they cannot endure this literal sense. But Jesus still does not correct their understanding.
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
Indeed that remains true for us today. It is a hard teaching any many still do not accept it. Yet from as early as the time of Paul this literal meaning has been Christian doctrine:
I Corinthians 10 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
I Corinthians 11 23For I received from the Lord what I also pkmtyolped on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
Just because we don't understand it does not mean God can't do it.
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Post by Pietro on Apr 10, 2005 8:52:20 GMT -5
He made this crystal clear in John 6:63. Let's look at His statement: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."Jesus made this statement to the disciples who were having difficulty understanding the hard spiritual concepts He had just given them. The problem here is that the Eucharistic discourse of Jesus ends with verse 58. The dialogue of verses 60-70 occurs later and deals with faith, not the Eucharist. And the word "spirit" is nowhere used in the Bible to mean "symbolic" as you claim here. Jesus is contrasting the natural or carnal man "flesh" with the spiritual or faith filled man. Check out I Corinthians 2:14 - 3:4 for this distinction between "flesh" and "spirit". And also note that Jesus says, " My flesh" when talking about the Eucharist and he says, " the flesh" when talking about the carnal man. Also note that even after your "crystal clear" verse 63 disciples leave him. See 66. They all still understood literally as Jesus intended.
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Post by LauraJean on Apr 12, 2005 8:40:42 GMT -5
Thank you, Pietro, for those posts! You've raised an aspect I had not previously considered.
Blessings, LJ
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Post by HomeAtLast on Apr 12, 2005 9:41:55 GMT -5
I have recently finished reading "Eucharistic Miracles" by Joan Carroll Cruz. How wonderful it is. They are all miracles, but the Miracle of Lanciano is the most convincing because of the scientific examinations confirming that the host was indeed heart tissue and coagulated blood.
Jesus is wondrous!
God's Blessings, Ann
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Post by Pietro on Apr 14, 2005 8:52:09 GMT -5
One other thought:
When Jesus said, "My body is real food and my blood real drink" it was well befor the last supper so to everyone it sounded gross and cannibalistic. Jesus knew that. He knew it was a hard teaching that required a great deal of faith in him. It was a test. It was like saying, "Are you going to trust me on this or leave me?" The disciples who remained with him pretty much said, "This makes no sense to us and sounds revolting but still we are going to believe you and stay with you because you alone have words of eternal life."
Then later at the last supper they understood that Jesus was taking the pasche tradition and the Melchezadek tradition and bringing them together in a new covenent of his body and blood.
The important thing was to believe His words even when it made no sense, even when it was a hard teaching, to trust him in that.
The test is the same for us today. Many still cannot accept it.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Apr 15, 2005 11:31:30 GMT -5
We accept them, we just interpret them differently. The Lord said in John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Because of these words, we apply The Lord's previous words (about eat His flesh and drinking His blood) in a spiritual manner.
I don't believe you can build a very strong case for transubstantiation in The Scriptures. The Lord used many illustrations and allegories to get His message across. He referred to Himself as The Door. But was He a physical door? Of course not. He was a spiritual door. He was called a Lion. But was He a literal lion? Of course not. He was called a Lamb? But was He a physical lamb? Again, of course not.
Likewise, when The Lord said, "Take, eat; this is my body" He was speaking in a spiritual sense, using bread and wine as illustrative anecdotes of His Body and Blood that we must "eat" spiritually by receiving Him (and what He accomplished through His death and resurrection) into our hearts.
Indeed, The words of The Lord are so true. The flesh profiteth nothing. It's the spirit that quickeneth. The Words of The Lord...they are spirit and they are life!!!
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Post by Pietro on Apr 15, 2005 13:09:49 GMT -5
We accept them, we just interpret them differently. The Lord said in John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Because of these words, we apply The Lord's previous words (about eat His flesh and drinking His blood) in a spiritual manner. I don't believe you can build a very strong case for transubstantiation in The Scriptures. The Lord used many illustrations and allegories to get His message across. He referred to Himself as The Door. But was He a physical door? Of course not. He was a spiritual door. He was called a Lion. But was He a literal lion? Of course not. He was called a Lamb? But was He a physical lamb? Again, of course not. Likewise, when The Lord said, "Take, eat; this is my body" He was speaking in a spiritual sense, using bread and wine as illustrative anecdotes of His Body and Blood that we must "eat" spiritually by receiving Him (and what He accomplished through His death and resurrection) into our hearts. Indeed, The words of The Lord are so true. The flesh profiteth nothing. It's the spirit that quickeneth. The Words of The Lord...they are spirit and they are life!!! He also said, " My flesh real food" and my blood real drink"Real as in "Real" not "symbolic" which you equate with "spiritual". While it is true that Jesus used illustrations and allegories to get His message across I don't think he emphasized the "real"ness of them especially when people were walking away because of misunderstanding. If his intention in John 6:63 was to clear up this misunderstading why did people still walk away? "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Does not mean that his words were metaphor, rather, they were true, real and life giving for all who believe them.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Apr 15, 2005 13:50:35 GMT -5
Pietro: He also said, "My flesh real food" and my blood real drink"
Me: The word "real" is not found in the version of The Bible I use, which is the King James Version. Maybe that's where our disagreement is. Hmmm.
Pietro: While it is true that Jesus used illustrations and allegories to get His message across I don't think he emphasized the "real"ness of them especially when people were walking away because of misunderstanding. If his intention in John 6:63 was to clear up this misunderstading why did people still walk away?
Me: How would I know. Probably because even though The Lord explained to them that His words were spiritual words, they still couldn't understand the things of the spirit, and walked away from Him. Of course, that would be just a symptom of the real cause, which, according to The Lord, would be that were really not of His fold. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27). So, in answer to your question, the real reason they stopped following Him was because they were not His sheep. His hard sayings simply revealed that truth.
Pietro: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Does not mean that his words were metaphor, rather, they were true, real and life giving for all who believe them.
Me: That's your interpretation. I disagree with it (not the part where you say His words were "true, real and life giving," but simply your literal interpretation of them).
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Post by Pietro on Apr 15, 2005 14:01:44 GMT -5
The word "real" is not found in the version of The Bible I use, which is the King James Version. Maybe that's where our disagreement is. Hmmm. I checked the greek interlinear. The word used is alethosan adverb meaning "truly" or even as KJ "indeed" And could you give me you runderstadning of Corinthians: I Corinthians 11
29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing [or some translate discerning] the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Apr 15, 2005 14:17:21 GMT -5
That's quite different than "real," wouldn't you say? I mean, let's look at The Lord's Words with both meanings:
"My flesh is truly food, and my blood truly drink."
Clearly, "truly" can still be truly in a spiritual sense.
Or;
"My flesh is food indeed, and my blood drink indeed."
Once again, emphasizing His words with the word "indeed" does not disqualify these words as potentially be symbolic.
Actually, even the word "real" doesn't disqualify The Lord's words as being symbolic. Real food can simply be meant as being real in a symbolic sense. Take for example The Lord being referred to as "The Door." Was The Lord a real door? Absolutely. We enter Heaven through Him, thus making Him The Door to Heaven. But was He a literal door? Of course not. But, nevertheless, He was, and is, a real door.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Apr 15, 2005 14:30:37 GMT -5
Pietro: And could you give me you runderstadning of Corinthians:
I Corinthians 11
29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing [or some translate discerning] the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
Me: Wow, is that how the catholic bible translates that verse? The KJV states, "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh aspodfija to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."
Basically, my understanding of this pkmtyolpage is that every Christian needs to examine himself before taking part in The Lord's Supper. It's a time of repentance and refreshing from The Lord. If a Christian is not right with God, and refuses to get right with God, they are guilty of disregarding the sacredness of The Lord's Body if they partake in this most sacred remembrance, and therefore will incur wrath and judgment on their lives by esteeming His Sacrifice so lightly.
We remember The Lord's Blood and Body in communion. Those who partake in communion unworthily are disrepecting The Lord's Body and do not understand (discern) the sacredness of the ceremony they are participating in.
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Post by Pietro on Apr 15, 2005 15:22:40 GMT -5
We remember The Lord's Blood and Body in communion. Those who partake in communion unworthily are disrepecting The Lord's Body and do not understand (discern) the sacredness of the ceremony they are participating in. I don't think the translations are that far different. And it sounds like you also make a distinction between a piece of bread that you throw on a salami sandwich and the bread you take in communion ceremony. It seems to be a mater of degree that sets our views apart. Let's explore for a moment what makes that distinction. Is it the intention of the celebrating community gathered? or does God have some involvement as well. And thanks for responding.
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Post by Pietro on Jul 20, 2005 10:51:43 GMT -5
Submitted for your reflection from The Writings of St. Francis of Assisi. The Lord Jesus said to His disciples: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." · "If" you know "Me," you would know "My Father as well; and from now on you shall know Him and have seen Him." · "Philip said to Him: Lord, show us the Father, and that suffices for us." · "Jesus said to him: So much time I have been with you, and you do not known Me? Philip, he who sees Me, sees even" My "Father" (Jn 14:6-9). · The Father dwells "in inaccessible light" (cf. 1 Tm 6:16), and "God is spirit" (Jn 4:24), and "no one ever sees God" (Jn 1:18). · For this reason He cannot be seen except in spirit, "since it is the spirit which vivifies, the flesh is good for nothing" (Jn 6:64). · But neither does the Son in that, which He is equal to the Father, seem to anyone to be otherwise than the Father, otherwise than the Holy Spirit. · Whence all who saw the Lord Jesus according to the Humanity and both did not see and believe according to the spirit and the Divinity, that He Himself is the true Son of God, have been ***ed; · so even now all who see the Sacrament, which is sanctified by the words of the Lord upon the altar by the hand of the priest in the form of bread and wine, and do not see and believe according to the spirit and the Divinity, that this is truly the Most Holy Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, have been ***ed, since the Most High Himself testifies, who said: · "This is My Body and" My "Blood of the New Testament [which is poured forth on behalf of the many]" (Mt 14:22,24); · and "He who eats" My Flesh "and drinks" My Blood, "has life eternal" (cf. Jn 6:55). · Whence of the Spirit of the Lord, who dwells in His faithful, is he who receives the Most Holy Body and Blood of the Lord. · All others, who do not share this same Spirit and presume to receive Him, 2 eat "and" drink "judgement upon themselves" (cf. 1 Cor. 11:29). Whence: "Sons of men, how long with a heavy heart?" (Ps 4:3) · Why is it that do you not know the truth and believe "in the Son of God?" (cf. Jn 9:35) · Behold, every day He humbles Himself (cf. Phil 2:8), just as when "from royal thrones" (Wis 18:15) He came into the womb of the Virgin; · every day He comes to us Himself humbly appearing; · everyday He descends from the bosom of the Father upon the altar in the hands of the priest. · And just as to the holy Apostles in true flesh, so even now He shows Himself to us in the Sacred Bread. · And just as when they gazed at His very own flesh they saw only His flesh, but contemplating with spiritual eyes believed Him to be God, · so we too seeing bread and wine with bodily eyes, are to see and firmly believe, that they are His Most Holy Body and Blood, living and true. · And in such a manner the Lord is always with His faithful, just as He Himself says: "Behold I am with you even to the consummation of the age" (cf. Mt 28:20) www.franciscan-archive.org/patriarcha/opera/admonit.html
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Post by marysia on Aug 3, 2005 15:30:23 GMT -5
I find it rather amusing that fellow Christians don't understand the full and REAL presence of Christ in the Eucharist yet the satanisit and other forms of evil throughout the world do. Priests are having issues with the new fangled for of offering the Eurcharist (Rcc) in the hand. There are people that are neither Rcc nor Christian that come and try to make away with the Eucharist as It is needed in their vile and evil ceremonies. Sorry but i find it sad that Christians can quibble about the True Presence of our Lord, yet the devil knows for sure.
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Post by babysis on Aug 3, 2005 15:42:08 GMT -5
They just think they know.
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