|
Post by marysia on Jan 30, 2004 9:04:04 GMT -5
in 1 corinthian 12:28-30 we are told that God has set some in the church - apostles, prophets, teachers, so on and so forth. why then, if no one is to learn from another? if we are to learn only from ourselves - we shouldn't be on this board or in any congregation - for fear that we may be learning from someone else. also - if you feel we shouldn't learn from others what's within the Word -- why do you try so hard to make people see it in your point of view?
gene: I think you've misunderstood me. There is nothing wrong with teachers, just the accepting of what gthey say without verifying what they say from the scriptures. No one should ever believe what I say or anyone without studying the subject for themselves.
me: nowadays you are correct and iknow within the parishes i belong we have study groups and discussion groups. the priest tells us which readings will be next so we can prep on our own for discussion. we're told to read this or that chapter for further insight during the gospel or other readings during pkmtyolm. maybe within the SDA people have always been able to read. unfortunately that has not always been so within the Rcc. not because people were stupid but many never had time to learn. others were immigrants coming to a new language. i thank God for the people around my grandfather who loved our Lord - and could never once read a word from the bible himself. should be have been cast out because he couldn't read for himself?
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Jan 30, 2004 9:35:29 GMT -5
in 1 corinthian 12:28-30 we are told that God has set some in the church - apostles, prophets, teachers, so on and so forth. why then, if no one is to learn from another? if we are to learn only from ourselves - we shouldn't be on this board or in any congregation - for fear that we may be learning from someone else. also - if you feel we shouldn't learn from others what's within the Word -- why do you try so hard to make people see it in your point of view? gene: I think you've misunderstood me. There is nothing wrong with teachers, just the accepting of what gthey say without verifying what they say from the scriptures. No one should ever believe what I say or anyone without studying the subject for themselves. me: nowadays you are correct and iknow within the parishes i belong we have study groups and discussion groups. the priest tells us which readings will be next so we can prep on our own for discussion. we're told to read this or that chapter for further insight during the gospel or other readings during pkmtyolm. maybe within the SDA people have always been able to read. unfortunately that has not always been so within the Rcc. not because people were stupid but many never had time to learn. others were immigrants coming to a new language. i thank God for the people around my grandfather who loved our Lord - and could never once read a word from the bible himself. should be have been cast out because he couldn't read for himself? Go to a baptist book store and purchase a bible concordance. In it, every word in the bible is listed by alphabet and every verse that word is used in is also listed. This is the tool that you must use to find the correct consensess on a biblical subject. When you study a subject from BOTH testaments, you'll get the truth on a subject.
[/color]
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Jan 30, 2004 9:58:35 GMT -5
Go to a baptist book store and purchase a bible concordance. In it, every word in the bible is listed by alphabet and every verse that word is used in is also listed. This is the tool that you must use to find the correct consensess on a biblical subject. When you study a subject from BOTH testaments, you'll get the truth on a subject.
[/color][/quote]' that's fine for myself who can read and research what i do not understand -- however... wasn't the concordance of which you speak put together by man? what of those who can not read or even read but not well? are they to be left out?
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Jan 30, 2004 11:49:51 GMT -5
' that's fine for myself who can read and research what i do not understand -- however... wasn't the concordance of which you speak put together by man? what of those who can not read or even read but not well? are they to be left out? What does that have to do with you?
[/color]
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Jan 30, 2004 11:56:33 GMT -5
What does that have to do with you?
[/color][/quote] all me to repost yet again what you didn't get from the first one... you -- No one should ever believe what I say or anyone without studying the subject for themselves. me: nowadays you are correct and iknow within the parishes i belong we have study groups and discussion groups. the priest tells us which readings will be next so we can prep on our own for discussion. we're told to read this or that chapter for further insight during the gospel or other readings during pkmtyolm. maybe within the SDA people have always been able to read. unfortunately that has not always been so within the Rcc. not because people were stupid but many never had time to learn. others were immigrants coming to a new language. i thank God for the people around my grandfather who loved our Lord - and could never once read a word from the bible himself. should be have been cast out because he couldn't read for himself? so yes - i can read and learn - should i then not teach if so called to do so. or because they can not learn for themselves by reading are they left out? since i'd questioned about those who could not read or learn well and you opted to tell me how to learn more -- i had to repost the original question to the discussion -- and yet again here -- that is what it has to do with me -- nothing as we were not talking about me.
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Jan 30, 2004 12:00:30 GMT -5
all me to repost yet again what you didn't get from the first one... you -- No one should ever believe what I say or anyone without studying the subject for themselves. me: nowadays you are correct and iknow within the parishes i belong we have study groups and discussion groups. the priest tells us which readings will be next so we can prep on our own for discussion. we're told to read this or that chapter for further insight during the gospel or other readings during pkmtyolm. maybe within the SDA people have always been able to read. unfortunately that has not always been so within the Rcc. not because people were stupid but many never had time to learn. others were immigrants coming to a new language. i thank God for the people around my grandfather who loved our Lord - and could never once read a word from the bible himself. should be have been cast out because he couldn't read for himself? so yes - i can read and learn - should i then not teach if so called to do so. or because they can not learn for themselves by reading are they left out? since i'd questioned about those who could not read or learn well and you opted to tell me how to learn more -- i had to repost the original question to the discussion -- and yet again here -- that is what it has to do with me -- nothing as we were not talking about me. I guess I didn't complete the answer. You must be sure that what you learn is correct BY THE SCRIPTURES and not by what others tell you before you teach others.
[/color]
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Jan 30, 2004 13:57:45 GMT -5
I guess I didn't complete the answer. You must be sure that what you learn is correct BY THE SCRIPTURES and not by what others tell you before you teach others.
[/color][/quote] haa haa haa nah come on say it gene -- you wanted to be even more explicit -- what i learn by the scriptures in agreeance with your mind and in your teaching yeah yeah yeah - i know (hee hee hee) as long as they are in accordance with how you feel/know things are to be then that's fine. really wish you could hear the tone in my voice as i typed this -- if you had a kid sister who badgered you as a kid -- same thing LOL happy friday!!
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Feb 2, 2004 5:44:05 GMT -5
haa haa haa nah come on say it gene -- you wanted to be even more explicit -- what i learn by the scriptures in agreeance with your mind and in your teaching yeah yeah yeah - i know (hee hee hee) as long as they are in accordance with how you feel/know things are to be then that's fine. really wish you could hear the tone in my voice as i typed this -- if you had a kid sister who badgered you as a kid -- same thing LOL happy friday!! LOL, you remind me of the S.B. commercial last night of the football official being screamed at by a coach, and the question was asked, "where does one train to take that kind of abuse"? I'm still laughing when I think of it.[/color]
|
|
|
Post by marysia on Feb 2, 2004 8:44:57 GMT -5
LOL, you remind me of the S.B. commercial last night of the football official being screamed at by a coach, and the question was asked, "where does one train to take that kind of abuse"? I'm still laughing when I think of it. [/color][/quote] ha ha ha ha hagene - thanks for taking that as offered -- in true jest and very tongue in cheek!! i was rather worried but then again figured - if he doesn't know me by now God bless you!!
|
|
|
Post by Pietro on Mar 7, 2004 14:28:51 GMT -5
It comes down to that ancient faith in the work of the Holy Spirit. It is difficult or me to understand how anyone would decline.
From the Eucharistic Prayer:
Lord you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
The day before he suffered he took bread in his sacred hands and looking up to heaven, to you, his almighty Father, he gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this all of you and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.
Let us proclaim the mystery of faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit. Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with John Paul. our Pope, N. our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles, and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages. May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory through your Son, Jesus Christ. Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, forever and ever. Amen.
|
|
|
Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 7, 2004 22:50:35 GMT -5
It comes down to that ancient faith in the work of the Holy Spirit. It is difficult or me to understand how anyone would decline. From the Eucharistic Prayer: Lord you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. The day before he suffered he took bread in his sacred hands and looking up to heaven, to you, his almighty Father, he gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this all of you and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me. Let us proclaim the mystery of faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit. Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with John Paul. our Pope, N. our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles, and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages. May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory through your Son, Jesus Christ. Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, forever and ever. Amen. Pietro, As I sat and watched "The pkmtyolpion Of The Christ" for the second time, last night, I saw the Eucharistic Prayer enacted in the movie moving from flashbacks of the last supper to the real time of Jesus' crucifixion. The removal of the cloth from the bread as Jesus' clothing was stripped from him. The raising of the bread as the cross was raised up in place. The apostle John relected back on the Last Supper as he watched his beloved savior fulfil his own prophesy. Praise the Lord Jesus. Blessings, Ann
|
|
|
Post by genesda on Mar 11, 2004 7:34:40 GMT -5
Pietro, As I sat and watched "The pkmtyolpion Of The Christ" for the second time, last night, I saw the Eucharistic Prayer enacted in the movie moving from flashbacks of the last supper to the real time of Jesus' crucifixion. The removal of the cloth from the bread as Jesus' clothing was stripped from him. The raising of the bread as the cross was raised up in place. The apostle John relected back on the Last Supper as he watched his beloved savior fulfil his own prophesy. Praise the Lord Jesus. Blessings, Ann I haven't seen it yet, but plan to soon. Let's not forget that Mel Gibbson is a Rc, so I would expect a little Rc flare to be injected into the script. I haven't heard anything negative about it yet, But then again, "Gene's examination" hasn't been enacted yet. I'll let you know if it's purely scriptural or if it's colored with Rc colors.
[/color]
|
|
|
Post by RealistState on Mar 12, 2004 20:38:46 GMT -5
Pietro, As I sat and watched "The pkmtyolpion Of The Christ" for the second time, last night, I saw the Eucharistic Prayer enacted in the movie moving from flashbacks of the last supper to the real time of Jesus' crucifixion. The removal of the cloth from the bread as Jesus' clothing was stripped from him. The raising of the bread as the cross was raised up in place. The apostle John relected back on the Last Supper as he watched his beloved savior fulfil his own prophesy. Praise the Lord Jesus. Blessings, Ann I haven't seen it yet, but plan to soon. Let's not forget that Mel Gibbson is a Rc, so I would expect a little Rc flare to be injected into the script. I haven't heard anything negative about it yet, But then again, "Gene's examination" hasn't been enacted yet. I'll let you know if it's purely scriptural or if it's colored with Rc colors.
[/color][/quote] Mel Gibson is technically a sedavacanist. They are technically Roman Catholics who do not recognize Vatican Council II as a legal council, and as a result consider the Chair of St Peter vacant and any pope (including the present one) as illegitimate.
|
|
|
Post by HomeAtLast on Mar 14, 2004 1:18:49 GMT -5
The truth of the scriptures is what's important, not Miller or Bates or Leo or any other church leader, no matter what denomination it is. I see a definite difference. Neither Miller or Bates dared tell anyone that they must obey them as they would God Himself, and they believed they were being guided by the H.s. too. Now you can place any kind of explanation you wish on what Leo said, the fact is that he said all should obey him as if it were God Himself. Even if the holy spirit were guiding him, he shouldn't be obeyed as God, but I doube seriously that the holy spirit would stay with anyone who preached disobedience to God's commandments, and obedience to the man, as Leo did.
The bible says to study for yourself. There's nothing about letting others tell you what's in the Word. The Bereans listened to Paul, but checked him out with the scriptures to see if he was telling them the truth. They didn't listen to him and accept his words as God Himself were speaking. The Bereans were a good example and were called "more noble" than the others because of their stance. I'm getting the impression that you don't really care what the scriptures say unless it is to quote a verse that you think upholds the Rc position. That only comes from indoctrination, not true study.
[/color][/quote] gene, Since you are speaking of Paul and his teachings being compared to Jesus words check out 1 Corinthians 11. Yes, rather than taking one verse, the whole chapter speaks volumes with Paul using Jesus own words. If the body and blood of Jesus are not present in the Eucharist why must we discern our state before we take communion? Why must we be sure to be clean before communion if it is only a symbol? He begins by saying "Imitate me, as I imitate Christ". Why would he say that unless he was doing this in remembrance of Christ? If Jesus, when he said "You must eat my body and drink my blood" was just speaking in parables and followers of his left at the teaching of this, why did he not say, hey guys, that was just a parable, I did not really mean it literally? This is what scriptures say, not just the RCC. This comes from true study of the Scriptures, not"indoctrination. I have just finished "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. Have you read it. I highly recommend it for Christians as well as non-Christians. It was very informative, especially chapter 14. Blessings, Ann
|
|
|
Post by Ben johnson on Mar 14, 2004 15:20:15 GMT -5
Are we to believe that Jesus was advocating consumption of Human flesh and blood, CONTRARY to the law which says "do not eat blood" (Lev17:12)? If there is true flesh and blood in communion, then the LAW is violated (Jesus "did not come to DESTROY the law but to FULFILL it" (Matt5:17), and Jesus is promiting CANNIBALISM.
Jesus, in fulfilling the Law, DOES NOT VIOLATE IT. This is a fact --- no eating blood.
It is clear that the idea behind communion is addressing the ESSENCE of salvation, which is "death of the old sin nature and birth of the new". Paul says (Rm6) that we are "BURIED-IMMERSED-CRUCIFED-DEAD-UNITED in Jesus' death, AND His resurrection".
The "eating of His flesh" is exactly the same idea as "uniting with Him" --- it is a spiritual union, Jesus INDWELLS us.
"Abide in Me, and I in you." Jn15:4
No cannibalism, no "eating blood", but spiritual communion. Nothing less, nothing more...
|
|