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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 16, 2003 17:51:45 GMT -5
NT epistles are just that, epistles, letters and don't necessarily contain the totality of apostolic tradition. they were never meant to as the letter to the Thessalonians indicates. To believe otherwise is to believe that all that was expressed by word made it into an epistle at some point. One may believe that if one wishes but there is no justification to automatically exclude oral traditon not found in them. John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Therefore ALL oral tradition is relayed through the Holy Ghost and need not be handed down by mere men.
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 16, 2003 17:55:01 GMT -5
Not only does Christ institute a teaching Church (Matt. 28:19-20), endowed with his own authority (Luke 10:16; Matt. 16:18, 18:18), but we nowhere see the notion of "Scripture alone" in the teachings of any of the apostles or any of their successors. In fact, we even see examples of a preference for imparting teachings orally and not in writing: "Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete" (2 John 12; c.f., 3 John 13). According to John 14 there was individual responsibility for one's fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately we will all individually stand before our Lord to account for our actions, not as a church. Therefore, the Holy Spirit gives to each individual, perfect and complete understand and wisdom to those that seek it and wait upon the Lord. There is no need for outside sources.
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Post by guidemeLord on Jul 16, 2003 17:58:05 GMT -5
According to John 14 there was individual responsibility for one's fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately we will all individually stand before our Lord to account for our actions, not as a church. Therefore, the Holy Spirit gives to each individual, perfect and complete understand and wisdom to those that seek it and wait upon the Lord. There is no need for outside sources. And again: 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." Follow no man, but only the Holy Spirit who speaks to each individual!!
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Post by genesda on Jul 17, 2003 8:16:50 GMT -5
The Early Christians held to the belief of scripture AND tradition on par with each other.
Define the "early Christians".
The earliest Christians, the apostles and those they taught believed in sola scriptura.[/color]
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Post by genesda on Jul 17, 2003 8:20:16 GMT -5
Are you referring to the Donation of Constantine? Yes, but that's just one of many.
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Post by genesda on Jul 17, 2003 8:23:00 GMT -5
If someone is claiming an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, their doctrine would have to be 100% correct. There is only one truth imparted by the Holy Spirit. The person themselves might not be perfect, but the doctrines they espouse must be infallible. God bless Yes, and test any doctrine against clear scriptural teachings. If there is a variance, discard it.[/color]
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Post by genesda on Jul 17, 2003 8:26:19 GMT -5
This makes perfect sense, that God would guard his truth by pkmtyolping it along in a succession. This would insure that no false teaching would become established. Now, I wold have to say, this does not preclude the possibilty of God selecting an individual outside of this line, or group. It is possible. But, their doctrine would have to be held to the standard of those appointed. God bless There is a standard for determining truth. It's called the bible. The line of popes have already been proven to be false as are their teachings. Satan is behind the papacy 100%.
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Post by genesda on Jul 17, 2003 8:28:53 GMT -5
NT epistles are just that, epistles, letters and don't necessarily contain the totality of apostolic tradition. they were never meant to as the letter to the Thessalonians indicates. To believe otherwise is to believe that all that was expressed by word made it into an epistle at some point. One may believe that if one wishes but there is no justification to automatically exclude oral traditon not found in them. So, what makes you think that what came later was truth? After all, you're just told, without evidence, what to believe.
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Post by Pietro on Jul 17, 2003 9:48:44 GMT -5
GuidemeLord: John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Therefore ALL oral tradition is relayed through the Holy Ghost and need not be handed down by mere men.
I’m afraid that makes no sense to me. If it is oral it must come through someone’s mouth and heard by another person with that process repeated if it is to be a tradition. Human beings are the medium for that process of the Holy Spirit.
According to John 14 there was individual responsibility for one's fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately we will all individually stand before our Lord to account for our actions, not as a church.
Unfortunately? I say thank God.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit gives to each individual, perfect and complete understand and wisdom to those that seek it and wait upon the Lord.
I agree with you there. But the Holy Spirit also uses other people in that giving.
There is no need for outside sources.
We need fellowship and a community to challenge and encourage us as well as to bring out the full richness of scripture. God did not create us to live in a vacuum. He could have given us each our own planets. But he didn’t.
Follow no man, but only the Holy Spirit who speaks to each individual!!
Be subject to your presbyters. (1 Peter 5:5)
Genesda
Define the "early Christians".
Of course any definition would be arbitrary but I would think that after 2000 years those up to the council of Nicaea (325) could be considered early christians.
The earliest Christians, the apostles and those they taught believed in sola scriptura.
The apostles didn’t even have the New Testament yet.
So, what makes you think that what came later was truth? After all, you're just told, without evidence, what to believe.
That’s where the Holy Spirit comes in. Trusting that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church founded by Jesus. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jul 18, 2003 7:40:30 GMT -5
Pietro:
The earliest Christians, the apostles and those they taught believed in sola scriptura.
The apostles didn’t even have the New Testament yet. That's exactly correct. They knew that the O.T. was still valid and that's what the apostles were checked from. The bible tells us that the "Bereans who were more noble than the others, searched the scriptures daily" to see if Paul was telling them the truth.
Now, they didn't rely on the Pharisees to tell them anything, they searched the WRITTEN WORD, the O.T.
So, what makes you think that what came later was truth? After all, you're just told, without evidence, what to believe.
That’s where the Holy Spirit comes in. Trusting that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church founded by Jesus.
If you're referring to the Rcc as the church founded by Jesus, you're wrong. Jesus didn't found the Rcc. The Rcc is a church founded on lies and deceptions. God's true church left the Roman church early when the Roman church slipped into apostasy. I don't believe it's the Holy Spirit guiding the Roman church, but the UN- holy spirit is.[/color]
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Post by Pietro on Jul 18, 2003 8:10:26 GMT -5
Pietro: God's true church left the Roman church early when the Roman church slipped into apostasy. [/b][/color] [/quote] When and over what issue?
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Post by Pietro on Jul 18, 2003 9:52:22 GMT -5
I just want to add that I appreciate the commitment and zeal of everyone on the forum for surely it is the love of Christ that underlies it all regardless of the divergent paths. It just seems to me that the whole concept of Sola Scriptura is bogus since scripture requires interpretation and everyone brings their own agenda to their interpretation. All the different nuances of interpretation give rise to the traditions, schools of thought, spiritualities, churches, whatever you want to call them.
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Post by Pietro on Jul 18, 2003 15:31:48 GMT -5
2 Peter 1:20, "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation"
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logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 21, 2003 10:05:07 GMT -5
It seems that the issue has slipped once again into people's personal interpretations. Oner person says, "I believe this" and another says, "I believe that." Please Prove sola scriptura using verses from the Bible that are clear.[/color] If you are citing 1 Tim 3:16-17 please read post #2 on page 6 and refute that argument.
Peace- logos
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Post by genesda on Jul 21, 2003 10:40:08 GMT -5
NT epistles are just that, epistles, letters and don't necessarily contain the totality of apostolic tradition. they were never meant to as the letter to the Thessalonians indicates. To believe otherwise is to believe that all that was expressed by word made it into an epistle at some point. One may believe that if one wishes but there is no justification to automatically exclude oral traditon not found in them. Since none of us were there and we know the Roman catholic church can't be relied on for truth, then we have no way of knowing what was not written by the apostles. I don't worry though because the whole plan of salvation is in the scriptures. No one eevr said the whole plan was in every letter written by the apostles, but remember GOD is the author of the bible and He has seen to it that we have ALL WE NEED TO KNOW right in the pages of His bible.
God even went so far as to see to it that the false books of the O.T. were removed which were incorrectly placed there by evil men in the Rcc.
No, there is no accurate oral tradition around today, and we really don't need it either.
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