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Post by Archangelwolf on Aug 2, 2003 4:15:10 GMT -5
Upon some advice from a fellow member, I have decided to discuss my "obstacles" to different denominations and religions in separate individual threads. So here goes:
I once thought very seriously about joining a Lutheran church. However, there are two things that troubled me:
#1. Anti-Semitism. Many Lutherans deny this, but it exists in their synods. I have witnessed it myself. Even Martin Luther himself displayed it in his writings.
#2. Very similar rituals to Catholics. I do not understand why Luther formed his own church, except to gain favor from the German government maybe. In that case, it was political. A lof of the traditions of Lutherans are similar to Catholics, and Episcopalian for that matter.
Later,
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Post by Flipper on Aug 2, 2003 12:26:25 GMT -5
Oh boy, an anti-Lutheran thread!! I haven't seen one of these in a while. Where's LJ? I need LJ!!! A.Believer and Phoebe too!! Where are you!!!!! Ok, I'll start instead: #1. Anti-Semitism. Many Lutherans deny this, but it exists in their synods. I have witnessed it myself. Even Martin Luther himself displayed it in his writings.
You are absolutely right in that Martin Luther was anti-semitic and it used to be in doctrine as well. However, that does not mean that Lutherans are now (I'm sure some are, but not because they are Lutheran). Like I said, it "used to be" in doctrine. It no longer is, in fact, we embrase our Jewish neighbors. My Lutheran church in particular helps to sponsor an organization made up of messianic Jews, and is meant to reach all Jews. It is called Apple of His Eye Ministry and their website is: www.appleofhiseye.org/. I would hardly call this anti-semitic. #2. Very similar rituals to Catholics. I do not understand why Luther formed his own church, except to gain favor from the German government maybe. In that case, it was political. A lof of the traditions of Lutherans are similar to Catholics, and Episcopalian for that matter.What traditions? Luther's beef with the Catholic church had nothing to do with how services are conducted. He thought people should be allowed to read the Bible for themselves. He thought indulgences were ridiculous in the least and Satanic at worst. There are some things we do that are the similar, but the reasoning is different. For example, we both have communion with real wine. We believe the bread and wine is symbolic of the body and blood. Catholics believe that it IS the body and blood. As far as more elaboration, I want to leave it to my Lutheran friends to do so - they are much better at it than I am.
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Post by Kvasir on Aug 2, 2003 19:57:23 GMT -5
Hi archangeldream! Nice topic. I will pick up the gauntlet. I would first like to say that I am a Christian first, and Lutheran second (I am in seminary now, and will be a pastor in 2 years).
Anti-semitism: Yes, Luther certainly had anti-JEWISH writings (just read the On the Jews and their Lies). In his defense, his beef with Jews was their rejection of Christ as Messiah. He had equal amounts of vitriol for others who denied Christ as Lord (so he wasn't merely singling out Jews because they were Jews, but because of their rejection of Christ). This certainly doesn't excuse his anti-Jewish sentiments and statements, but does give an explanation.
#2: Very similar rituals to Catholics.
Quote: "I do not understand why Luther formed his own church..."
First of all the last think Luther wanted was a bunch of people going around calling themselves Lutherans. He did NOT want to break from the Catholic church. It was only when they excommunicated him (which they have never removed) and ordered his excecution that he thought the formation of a new church was needed (if it wasn't for Elector Frederick - Prince in Germany, protecting his backside he would have certainly burned).
As far as traditions, yes I think the case can be made that many rituals are similar. The differences are in what is recognized as a sacrament (Catholics have 7 or 8, Lutherans only two: baptism and eucharist). Here Flipper has very well explained the difference between Catholic transubstantiation and Lutheran beliefs regarding the Lord's supper.
Luther's main beef with the catholic church was around indulgences, the abuse of bishops, the idea that women and men needed a mediator to Christ (priests) and the abuse of money in the church! He thought that his protests would be heard by the pope, and used to change the church (he couldn't have been more wrong).
His main concerns were first that the Word was rightly preached in churches and that children were properly taught from the Bible (hence his large and small catechisms). The last years of his life were spent traveling to churches to make sure these were being done correctly - not in forming the infrastructure of a new church.
In the end he didn't care about how the church was structured, run or administered. He believed that the true church of Christ was made of believers. That true church existed wherever two or more met in Christ's name - not solely in Rome, not in Whittenberg and not in Jerusalem. Nothing could touch God's true church, which superceded any institution that man could make.
This fall a movie on Luther is coming to theaters, and from what I hear it is very true to his story. He was often crude (loved using obscentities), could be cruel to those who disagreed and yes had it in for the Jews (mainly because he thought they would and should all convert to Christianity once they heard the Word properly preached with Holy Spirit Intervention).
In the end however he was a great teacher, excellent preacher and above all a warrior for the true preaching of the Word of God without human speculation and additions.
Enough of my rant -
I welcome all disagreements, hostile postings, name calling (as long as it is tasteful) and dogmatic discussions with Christian love and understanding. (I would rather have somebody communicate their disagreements than secretly curse me in their prayers!!!)
Again, Christian first, Lutheran second (then father, husband, soccer player, fiction reader, guitarist, youth pastor......).
Christ First!!!!
Jim
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Post by LauraJean on Aug 7, 2003 1:11:12 GMT -5
Here I am!! {waves to Flipper} I was all ready with my answers but it looks like Jim did way better than I could.
Michael, if you were curious about the Lutheran church and had these roadblocks, why didn't you talk to the pastor? He would have told you what Jim did, what I would have, what almost any Lutheran could have. Ah, well... the important thing is that you're "plugged in" to a church family, isn't it?
Is there something else niggling in your heart? My vacation is over and the board is back up, so fire away!
On a separate note, to Jim, best wishes on your studies. Are you in St. Louis or in Ft. Wayne? (I'm making the ego-centric conclusion that you are LCMS) When do you find out about your vicarage?
Blessings to you all! LJ
P.S., to Flipper, LCMS believes the bread and wine IS the body and blood. (not symbolic) Is ELCA different?
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Post by CMAC on Aug 7, 2003 1:31:05 GMT -5
Martin Luther was initially no more anti-semitic than anyone else in those days. It was in the elder stages of his life when the Jews continued to reject Christ in spite of all Luther was teaching, that he became more virulently anti-Semitic.
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Post by Flipper on Aug 7, 2003 8:06:05 GMT -5
Here I am!! {waves to Flipper} P.S., to Flipper, LCMS believes the bread and wine IS the body and blood. (not symbolic) Is ELCA different? I don't know about ELCA. I thought the Catholics believed in trans-something where the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood. Lutherans believe that is what it is, but it isn't a literal transformation. Kvasir!! Pastor in training!!! I am looking forward to reading more from you and maybe learning something. I only became a Lutheran in my adulthood - haven't read Cathecism yet. Still learning lots.
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Post by Metanoia on Aug 7, 2003 13:56:21 GMT -5
I don't know about ELCA. I thought the Catholics believed in trans-something where the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood. Lutherans believe that is what it is, but it isn't a literal transformation. Kvasir!! Pastor in training!!! I am looking forward to reading more from you and maybe learning something. I only became a Lutheran in my adulthood - haven't read Cathecism yet. Still learning lots. Flippster Let me help with the trans and con substatiationas best I can. Catholics believe that when the bread and wine are consecrated they actually become the Body and Blood of Christ, they are no longer bread and wine. For Catholics the actual substance changes completely Lutherans believe that when the bread and wine are consecrated they also become the Body and Blood of Christ, but they still also bread and wine. For Lutherans the bread and wine, body and blood exist within the same substance. I hop eI got it right! LJ, check my math!
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Post by Pietro on Aug 7, 2003 14:18:32 GMT -5
I have not experienced this myself but I have heard that Lutherans serve green jello at almost every social gathering.
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Post by Metanoia on Aug 7, 2003 14:24:44 GMT -5
I have not experienced this myself but I have heard that Lutherans serve green jello at almost every social gathering. So that's what is next to the three bean salad! I was beginning to wonder
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Post by Flipper on Aug 7, 2003 14:44:53 GMT -5
Flippster Let me help with the trans and con substatiationas best I can. Catholics believe that when the bread and wine are consecrated they actually become the Body and Blood of Christ, they are no longer bread and wine. For Catholics the actual substance changes completely Lutherans believe that when the bread and wine are consecrated they also become the Body and Blood of Christ, but they still also bread and wine. For Lutherans the bread and wine, body and blood exist within the same substance. I hop eI got it right! LJ, check my math! That sounds right. Sorry, my bad earlier.
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Post by hidden on Aug 7, 2003 16:42:24 GMT -5
Metanoia is correct on the communion thingy... ;D
Oh...and definitely green jello....oh bring the whole pot of coffee too...can't forget that...
and it's a HOT DISH.!!!!!! not a pkmtyolcerole...hehehehe...
ps...love being Lutheran myself...learned more being Lutefisk lover than a Catholic in my childhood...
wasn't it Luther who coined the phrase..."saved by the grace of God through faith in 'Christ Jesus..."
similar to...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
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Post by LauraJean on Aug 7, 2003 22:24:35 GMT -5
I hope I got it right! LJ, check my math! You almost have it. I'm sure you're harkening back to the phrase, "in, with, and under" (which I personally don't think helps further someone's understanding of what we believe.) Lutherans don't teach that the elements change (transsubstantiation) or exist only with the body and blood (consubstantiation). We teach "real presence" and take Jesus at His word; "This IS my body.... This IS my blood...." We don't claim to know how it happens, we claim only to have faith that it does. To the more confused out there it may seem like a dodge, but we accept that there are things Jesus told us which we cannot understand and yet still believe. It kind of falls in the same vein as trying to fully understand and explain the trinity. Personally (this is me, not Lutheran theology) I find the differences between Transsubstantiation, Consubstantiation and Real Presence to be much less critical than the differences between those who believe the elements are merely representative and those who don't. In fact, I almost see the differences in what those who believe the body and blood are present (however it got there) to be almost semantic in nature. To Flipper, I apologize. For some reason I have it in my head you are ELCA and I know that's not true. So please forgive my question based on my erroneous memory! Blessings to all! LJ
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Post by Kvasir on Aug 7, 2003 23:26:17 GMT -5
Hi Flipper! Actually, I am ELCA and living in St. Paul on the Luther Seminary campus with my wife, two dogs, two cats and soon, a daughter!
LauraJean - I liked the way you put that (re Eucharist).
One reason I am proud to be Lutheran is the adherence to the doctrine of the "priesthood of all believers."
Christ in heaven is our Mediator, bringing our sacrifice of prayer and thanksgiving, indeed, of our very selves, to the Father. We do not offer Christ; he offers us. We lay ourselves upon him through faith; he in turn offers himself for us—continually—in heaven. The fact that each one does this for himself—each one by his own faith offers Christ to God—furnishes the basis on which Luther builds the evangelical doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, “All Christian men are priests, all women priestesses.” (From Luther's Works).
It is the fact that Lutherans do not set pastors apart from the congregation as mediators to Christ that appeals to me. Pastors have a duty to preach the Word and administer the sacrament, but it is also up to the laity to preach the Gospel of Christ - He is risen indeed!!!
Thanks for listening.
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Post by Flipper on Aug 7, 2003 23:59:32 GMT -5
Amen! Our church bulliton lists the different people in charge and their duties. At the bottom it has:
Ministers - All people in Christ.
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Post by Archangelwolf on Aug 8, 2003 4:05:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I guess you are right. Maybe I should have asked the pastor.
One other thing: the sprinkling of babies.
I believe that the decision to follow Christ is a conscious decision made at a mature age. This sprinkling thing is a waste of water, in my opinion.
Regards,
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