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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 2, 2004 11:55:08 GMT -5
When Christians die, do they immediately go to Heaven or wait until the return of Christ, the Resurrection, Judgement, and go to the New Jerusalem on the New Earth? Or does something else happen?
TB
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 2, 2004 15:34:19 GMT -5
When Christians die, do they immediately go to Heaven or wait until the return of Christ, the Resurrection, Judgement, and go to the New Jerusalem on the New Earth? Or does something else happen?
TB The way I see it, is that God is outside of time. We are in they physical realm of space and time. When we die, we then leave the realm of space and time. So the entire history of the universe is kinda like a wall. The beginning of the wall is the beginning of time, and it stretches out for a certain distance, where it ends at the end of time. So when you die, it is kinda like opening a door and stepping out of that wall. So whether you open a door close to the beginning of the wall, or the end of the wall, you arrive in the same place at the same "time". So I guess I would say yes to both questions. We go straight to heaven and we wait until the end of time. It just depends on if you take the perspective of the ones still in the wall, or the ones outside the wall. That is how I look at it. I could be wrong, and it is not like I am basing this on any specific scriptures, but I haven't really heard anything to make me think that it isn't like this.
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Post by SonWorshiper on Oct 2, 2004 22:57:01 GMT -5
I don't even see how this subject is up for much of a debate. Here's what Paul said:
"For I am in a strait betwixt two, have a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better." (Philippians 1:21).
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (II Corinthians 5:8)
Seems pretty plain and simple to me.
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Post by AuntRonda on Oct 3, 2004 4:37:14 GMT -5
From Acts 7 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
I would say Stephen was on his way to Heaven.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Ronda
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 3, 2004 7:09:41 GMT -5
I don't even see how this subject is up for much of a debate. Here's what Paul said: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, have a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better." (Philippians 1:21).
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (II Corinthians 5:8)Seems pretty plain and simple to me. Just curious, but what do you think of my explanation in light of these scriptures?
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Post by AuntRonda on Oct 3, 2004 8:40:52 GMT -5
Just curious, but what do you think of my explanation in light of these scriptures? I'm not sure.......I have not have a cup of coffee yet this morning. Ronda
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 3, 2004 14:34:28 GMT -5
From Acts 7 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." I would say Stephen was on his way to Heaven. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Ronda When Stephen stood accused before the Sanhedrin in their Council Hall, he accused them in return … 51 You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. 52 Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; 53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it." 54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him.While still in the Council Hall, yet unharmed, Stephen had a vision …55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."Then the Sanhedrin dragged him out of town and stoned him …57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.Acts 7:54-60 NASB The pkmtyolpage ends with Stephen saying Jesus himself must receive his spirit and that this sin might not stand against his accusers. Then he dies. Where in this pkmtyolpage does it specifiy that Stephen’s spirit went to Heaven immediately after he died?
TB
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Post by AuntRonda on Oct 3, 2004 18:22:09 GMT -5
I disagree with your interpretation of receive my spirit.
I see that as meaning he is on his way home.
Also, I see his vision to be one of Jesus standing to welcome him to heaven.
Ronda
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 3, 2004 20:51:26 GMT -5
I disagree with your interpretation of receive my spirit. I see that as meaning he is on his way home. Also, I see his vision to be one of Jesus standing to welcome him to heaven. Ronda You've made these statements without any explanation as to why.
Here is why I wrote what I wrote. Here's the original Greek text, transliteratedfrom the Nestlé-Aland Greek New Testament, 26th Ed., of Acts 7:59-60 ...59 kai' ( and) elithobo'loun ( they pelted with stones) to'n Ste'phanon ( Stephen) epikalou'menon ( himself calling upon) kai' le'gonta, ( and saying,) Ku'rie Iêsou', ( Lord Jesus,) de'xai ( you yourself must receive) to' pneu'ma mou. ( my spirit.) 60 thei's de' ta' go'nata ( but having put the knee) e'kraxen ( he croaked) phônê'i mega'lêi, ( in a great sound,) Ku'rie, ( Lord,) mê' stê'sêis autoi's ( that you might not make stand to them) tau'tên ( this) tê'n hamartian. ( the sin.) kai' ( and) tou'to eipô'n ( while he was saying this) ekoimê'thê. ( he was put to sleep.) I've interlaced the English translations of the Greek words. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you disagree with my interpretation.
The Greek word "de'xai" has as its base word "de'chomai." This means "take, accept, or receive." The inflection of the word means it's a verb of the 2nd person and singular in number. The subject then is "you." The verb is of the middle voice, and of the imperative mood but has no real tense. The middle voice means the agent of the action (Jesus) is also a part of the action. The imperative mood means the the agent must be a part of the action. There is no tense for this verb. The action then can take place at a time as described elsewhere.
From the limited account of Stephen's vision, what about it makes you see it as you do?
TB
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 5, 2004 16:57:01 GMT -5
Let's look at 2 Corinthians 5:8 in the original Greek ...
8 tharrou'men de' kai' eudokou'men ma'llon ekdêmê'sai ek tou' sô'matos kai' endêmê'sai pro's to'n ku'rion. 2 Corinthians 5:8, transliterated from the Nestlé-Aland Greek New Testament, 26th Ed.
Translating the Greek into English ...
tharrou'men [tharre'ô] (v 1st pl pre act ind) we are confident [1] de' [de'] (conj) but/now kai' [kai'] (conj) and eudokou'men [eudoke'ô] (v 1st pl pre act ind) we are content [1] ma'llon [ma'llon] (adv) very ekdêmê'sai [ekdêmê'ô] (v aor act inf) to depart [2] ek [ek] (prep) out of tou' sô'matos [sô'ma] (n gen sg neu) <of/from> the body kai' [kai'] (conj) and endêmê'sai [endême'ô] (v aor act inf) to live in [2] pro's [pro's] (prep) to/toward/with to'n ku'rion [ku'rios] (n acc sg mas) the Lord . [.] (punc) .
My humble attempt at translation put together ...
But/now we are/have been confident and very content [1] to depart [2] out of the body and to live [2] with the Lord.
Some notes ...
[1] It’s unclear if these verbs are imperfect or present in tense. The imperfect denotes an action that is continuing from a past time. The imperfect would denote they have been confident and content in the past and continue to be so. The present tense would denote they are only just now confident and content.
[2] These infinitives are of the aorist tense, meaning they really have no tense at all. In this case, the timing of the events is not being emphasized. It is the fact of the events which is being emphasized. Paul purposely used a tense showing he knew that after dying, we Christians would live with Christ; however, he didn’t know how long after we die before we would live with Christ.
I don't believe this verse shows that immediately after death, Christians go straight to Heaven. It does show that after Christains die, they will, at some point, go live with Jesus. Where? It isn't in this verse. But it is covered in other parts of the Bible.
TB
abbreviations: 1st – first person acc – accusative case act – active voice adv – adverb aor – aorist tense conj - conjunction gen – genitive ind – indicative inf – infinitive mas – masculine gender n – noun neu – neuter gender pl – plural in number pre – present tense prep – preposition punc – punctuation sg – singular in number v – verb
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Post by LauraJean on Oct 6, 2004 17:10:40 GMT -5
I don't believe this verse shows that immediately after death, Christians go straight to Heaven. It does show that after Christains die, they will, at some point, go live with Jesus. Where? It isn't in this verse. But it is covered in other parts of the Bible. I think that since we experience time linearally, this question seems difficult to answer. What I believe is that when we die, time ceases to exist in a linear fashion and we "jump ahead" to Judgement Day, the whole sheep and goats thing. We go straight to the end of the story, "Advance to GO" while our brothers and sisters on Earth still live with linear time. I hope this makes sense. Does the Bible spell this scenario out? No, but neither does it rule it out. And as our good friend Andy says, (Who knew this would come in handy so soon?) Blessings, LJ P.S., TB, you must be a coding fool!!
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Oct 6, 2004 17:51:25 GMT -5
I think that since we experience time linearally, this question seems difficult to answer. What I believe is that when we die, time ceases to exist in a linear fashion and we "jump ahead" to Judgement Day, the whole sheep and goats thing. We go straight to the end of the story, "Advance to GO" while our brothers and sisters on Earth still live with linear time. I hope this makes sense. Does the Bible spell this scenario out? No, but neither does it rule it out. This is in essence what I said in my explanation at the top of the thread. Nobody seems to be commenting on my version though.
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 7, 2004 7:23:58 GMT -5
P.S., TB, you must be a coding fool!! It's all done with smoke, mirrors, MS-Excel®, & MS-Word®! ;D
TB
P.S. I am available to work such magic at children's birthday parties and bar mitzvahs!
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Post by Cohdra on Oct 13, 2004 18:46:48 GMT -5
The way I see it, is that God is outside of time. We are in they physical realm of space and time. When we die, we then leave the realm of space and time. So the entire history of the universe is kinda like a wall. The beginning of the wall is the beginning of time, and it stretches out for a certain distance, where it ends at the end of time. So when you die, it is kinda like opening a door and stepping out of that wall. So whether you open a door close to the beginning of the wall, or the end of the wall, you arrive in the same place at the same "time". So I guess I would say yes to both questions. We go straight to heaven and we wait until the end of time. It just depends on if you take the perspective of the ones still in the wall, or the ones outside the wall. That is how I look at it. I could be wrong, and it is not like I am basing this on any specific scriptures, but I haven't really heard anything to make me think that it isn't like this. I agree. When our spirits leave our bodies, they are "outside of time". Thus, God could place us anywhere on the timeline (though I personally believe that time is circular rather than linear). God bless
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Post by TarueBeliever on Oct 13, 2004 19:51:47 GMT -5
The way I see it, when a person's physical body dies, the soul skips to the end of time to the Day of the Lord, to Judgement. All souls receive new bodies. This is the final resurrection. Then all are judged. Those whose sins have been blotted out and whose names are in the Book of Life go to the New Jerusalem, which has come down from Heaven to the new earth. The rest go to the eternal fire to be consumed.
Scott
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