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Post by Deborah4God on Sept 6, 2003 17:08:41 GMT -5
I don't claim to know alot about science because I don't, so would someboby please tell me in simple terms-of course How did life get started from non-living material- because you can not get something from nothing unless you are God! If everything is made out of matter you and me and the world then how did the world get here? Either 1. Somebody made the world or-2. the world made itself- So if it was not created like the book of Genesis tells us then how did it get here? God Bless
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Post by Shirley on Sept 6, 2003 17:10:43 GMT -5
It was thought into existance.
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Sept 6, 2003 17:21:09 GMT -5
I don't claim to know alot about science because I don't, so would someboby please tell me in simple terms-of course How did life get started from non-living material- because you can not get something from nothing unless you are God! If everything is made out of matter you and me and the world then how did the world get here? Either 1. Somebody made the world or-2. the world made itself- So if it was not created like the book of Genesis tells us then how did it get here? God Bless Well, according to secular scientists, at the moment of the big bang, a tremendous amount of energy was released into the universe. According to Einstein's equation (E=mc^2), Energy related to pkmtyolm. So in other words, if you have enough energy, you can create matter. To a Biblical scientist, don't see a problem with this. I think the tremendous amount of energy came from God. God spoke, and in an instant, all the energy in the entire universe for all time appeared in one point of the universe, and that is known as the "Big Bang."
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Post by michaeldark on Sept 6, 2003 17:39:06 GMT -5
To a Biblical scientist, don't see a problem with this. I think the tremendous amount of energy came from God. God spoke, and in an instant, all the energy in the entire universe for all time appeared in one point of the universe, and that is known as the "Big Bang." Good point. The Big Bang never leaves out God like most religious freaks think,because there's a loophole for God to exist in it. According to it all the matter in the universe was focussed into one point,like all the matter sucked into a blackhole,known as the singularity. The Big Bang does not explain how the matter got there,nor CAN it explain what happened prior to itself. As someone that likes to combine science and religion to get a full understanding of the universe,here's what I think happened. God spoke the first word,and the singularity appeared. God spoke again,and the Big Bang happened. As God spoke,the universe came into fruitation as explained in genesis,or similiar enough not to discredit Genesis. That make sense anyone?
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Post by Deborah4God on Sept 6, 2003 17:39:48 GMT -5
Well, according to secular scientists, at the moment of the big bang, a tremendous amount of energy was released into the universe. According to Einstein's equation (E=mc^2), Energy related to pkmtyolm. So in other words, if you have enough energy, you can create matter. To a Biblical scientist, don't see a problem with this. I think the tremendous amount of energy came from God. God spoke, and in an instant, all the energy in the entire universe for all time appeared in one point of the universe, and that is known as the "Big Bang." the same thing for the rest of our solar system?
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Post by michaeldark on Sept 6, 2003 17:46:14 GMT -5
I don't claim to know alot about science because I don't, so would someboby please tell me in simple terms-of course How did life get started from non-living material- because you can not get something from nothing unless you are God! If everything is made out of matter you and me and the world then how did the world get here? Either 1. Somebody made the world or-2. the world made itself- So if it was not created like the book of Genesis tells us then how did it get here? God Bless How do you get life from none-life(Abiogenesis)? You can't. Someone wanted to make Evolution into a creation theory,which it isn't. So they vcame up with that to give Evolution a starting point that fit intpo a scientific logic. Evolution is not a creation theory. It deals with extreme adaptation and natural selection. It deal with the CONTINUATION of Creation. Evolution does occur in minor scales,and natural selection does happen,you can't deny that. But on larger scales like what Darwin believed he was seeing,I personally don't think it does. BUT anything is possible. And if it does occur like Darwein thought,than it's part of God's plan somehow.
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Post by Deborah4God on Sept 6, 2003 17:55:45 GMT -5
How do you get life from none-life(Abiogenesis)? You can't. Someone wanted to make Evolution into a creation theory,which it isn't. So they vcame up with that to give Evolution a starting point that fit intpo a scientific logic. Evolution is not a creation theory. It deals with extreme adaptation and natural selection. It deal with the CONTINUATION of Creation. Evolution does occur in minor scales,and natural selection does happen,you can't deny that. But on larger scales like what Darwin believed he was seeing,I personally don't think it does. BUT anything is possible. And if it does occur like Darwein thought,than it's part of God's plan somehow. Michael- thanks
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Post by LucasTheAngel on Sept 6, 2003 21:25:29 GMT -5
I always liked this question. It makes even the most devoted Atheist ask the question "why?" which is what it's all about.
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Post by michaeldark on Sept 6, 2003 22:07:39 GMT -5
Michael- thanks You're welcome. And I appologize for that comment I made about you....I think I said looking like the offspring of Reba Mcintire and an alien. If you remember that. So yeah,sorry for that.
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Post by Ben johnson on Sept 7, 2003 0:24:29 GMT -5
According to the "BIG-BANG" theory, everything started at a POINT --- a singularity, a single location too small to have width or height or depth. They have NO IDEA HOW, but a fantastic explosion spewed matter out into the Universe; hydrogen formed, stars condensed and ignited and shown their light. ONE star burned and burned, smashing hydrogen together (fusion) into helium, eventually into lithium, berilium, oxygen, nytrogen, iron, all the elements we know and love. Then THAT star BLEW UP, and from the debris a NEW star came into existence --- our SUN. ANd all of the minerals from all that flotsam/jetsam condensed and formed our PLANETS. With me so far?
THEN, on planet EARTH, after it had cooled and formed atmosphere (but no OXYGEN), maybe millions of COMETS hit (other debris from our prehistoric star-source) depositing WATER. Lighting flailed through the mineral-rich water-soaked clouds (methane, ethane, ammonia, etc). Eventually, simple AMINO ACIDS existed; which somehow formed themselves into proteins, the building blocks of life. So theorized Stanley Miller, who performed an experiement with a flask of "PRIMORDIAL SOUP" and HIGH VOLTAGE ARCS to "simulate" prehistoric Earth and life's beginning. BUT --- geology shows that oxygen has ALWAYS been here, though oxygen comes from LIFE! And oxygen would POISON the production of amino acids. Further, the experiment had a TRAP to catch and PROTECT the amino acids; in nature the billion-to-one destruct rate RUINS the amino acids.
BUT because we NEED evolution we'll PRETEND the biogenesis experiment was LEGITIMATE. So --- we have prehistoric amino acids (both left and right handed isomers), only the LEFT-handed ones assembled THEMSELVES into protein chains, then DNA and RNA and gained the ability to REPRODUCE; somehow in the process making CELL WALLS (without which DNA cannot exist, and DNA is required to MAKE cell walls; but our little cell built BOTH at the SAME TIME!). Now this little cell struggles along for a while, until, one day, it finds ANOTHER life form, which has ALSO assembled itself from amino acids --- MITOCHONDREA! Maybe a ROCK falls and WOUNDS our cell, the the little mitochondrea get ACCIDENTALLY pushed inside our cell; and OUILA! THey work together VERY WELL! Our cell then reproduces, making gobs and gobs of mistakes in reproduction, which eventually (because of all of the MISTAKES) forms multi-cell organisms, heart, fins, legs, EYES jellyfish, fishes, mammals, dinosaurs, flying birds, and eventually, MAN!
So say ALL PUBLIC SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS!!! If you read between the LINES of what I wrote, you will see the abject bsurdity of the entire religion; and a religion it very much is.
One evolutionist (I forget which) admitted the motivation for evolution was SEXUAL; because "If we admitted the existence of GOD, then we couldn't engage in any twisted and perverted thing that we DESIRE; so Evolution fills the void left by our rejection of God..."
Fills it? NOT VERY WELL. Not well at all...
What makes me ROTFLOL, is to hear a supposed "scientist" spouting something about "parallel evolution on OTHER WORLDS!" The odds of our first CELL getting going is really one chance literally in INFINITY; but they believe it happened TWICE (to create mitochondrea --- the powerhouses of our cells). Now to consider that it happened a THIRD time, on ANOTHER PLANET ? ! ?!
Never have I seen such faith!
BTW, evolution has NEVER been observed; only certain "variation of species" (even emergence of certain new species), based on adaptability; but never has been observed a new KIND. So vastly complicated is life (you have 23 chromosone pairs, 46 genes, each of which has THREE BILLION sequences of ACT&G; if you tried to COUNT to 3 billion at three per second, never eat/sleep, it would take you THIRTY YEARS!) --- mutations are FAR, FAR more likely to be detrimental than beneficial. And there is the "irreducible complexity" problem; such as the "DNA/CELL-WALL" problem, to "flying birds" (feathers are really COMPLEX, don't benefit the beast until working WITH hollow bones, musculature, aerodynamics, IE a FLYING ANIMAL!); which came first, amino acids or poly-peptides? Chicken or egg? ? ?
Now --- play with a little RELATIVITY. If time is a function of gravity (and it is), then our POINT just before the BIG BANG, had essentially infinite pkmtyolm; thus, TIME WAS ZERO. (relative to us now anyway) So, time ITSELF did not EXIST before the "Big Bang". And, space itself can be thought of as "NOT-EMPTY", but filled with "virtual particles". You see, if you stretch a string between two posts, and PLUCK the string, a positive pulse moves to the left, and a negative pulse moves to the right. Total energy in the string is zero; yet each pulse has energy --- one positive, one negative (so they ADD to zero). So too our "virtual particles" --- perhaps virtual particles can be PULLED APART creating a REAL POSITIVE one, and a REAL NEGATIVE one. Don't that just make your HAIR hurt? ? ?
It takes INCREDIBLE FAITH and effort to not-believe-in-God. (Romans 1:20)
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Sept 7, 2003 1:09:09 GMT -5
the same thing for the rest of our solar system? What do you mean? Can you clarify the question?
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Sept 7, 2003 1:10:57 GMT -5
How do you get life from none-life(Abiogenesis)? You can't. Someone wanted to make Evolution into a creation theory,which it isn't. So they vcame up with that to give Evolution a starting point that fit intpo a scientific logic. Evolution is not a creation theory. It deals with extreme adaptation and natural selection. It deal with the CONTINUATION of Creation. Evolution does occur in minor scales,and natural selection does happen,you can't deny that. But on larger scales like what Darwin believed he was seeing,I personally don't think it does. BUT anything is possible. And if it does occur like Darwein thought,than it's part of God's plan somehow. So it was totally impossible for God to work through evolution? God could not have done it? Even though the evidence in the physical world points towards it, and even though Genesis can agree with it, God couldn't have done it?
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Post by Traffic Demon on Sept 7, 2003 4:41:28 GMT -5
Deborah4God - "How did life get started from non-living material"The answer, for the time being, is that we don't know. There are many models which propose how abiogenesis could have ocurred, but none which have successfully replicated it. Of course, we have only been trying to do so for about one hundred fifty years or so, with realistic attempts not occurring until the last half-century. Given that it took the Earth nearly a billion years to achieve a successful result (and particularly if it occurred without supernatural intervention), such a short time frame without success cannot be considered significant. "If everything is made out of matter you and me and the world then how did the world get here?"While all matter and energy came into existence in the Big Bang, if one asks how it came into existence, the answer again is that we don't know yet. "the same thing for the rest of our solar system?"Our solar system came into existence through a process called stellar accretion. A quick and dirty view of the process is that an accumulation of spaceborne particles will gradually accumulate more and more pkmtyolm as more particles are attracted by gravitation. As more particles are attracted, they may begin to form a disk, which begins to rotate due to this addition of matter. Should the disk reach sufficient size, matter at the center may condense to give rise to a star, with matter further from the center giving rise to smaller orbiting clouds which may form into planets shortly after (shortly, at least in astronomical terms). This process is currently being observed in a few locations, as stars in those locations are known to be orbited by disks of matter. michaeldark - "Evolution does occur in minor scales,and natural selection does happen,you can't deny that. But on larger scales like what Darwin believed he was seeing,I personally don't think it does."Large scale evolution has been recognized to occur for over a century now. For examples, please see 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, the Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ, the Fossil Horses FAQs, and The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence, all located in the Talk.Origins Archive. When you feel ready to do so, I definitely recommend that you take a look. Ben johnson - "They have NO IDEA HOW"What's wrong with saying "I don't know?" It is just that not knowing that continues to drive science and discovery. Why should we expect to have all the answers now? "BUT --- geology shows that oxygen has ALWAYS been here, though oxygen comes from LIFE!"While oxygen is certainly given off in some biological processes, such processes are hardly the only sources of oxygen available. "And oxygen would POISON the production of amino acids."Not true at all. "Further, the experiment had a TRAP to catch and PROTECT the amino acids; in nature the billion-to-one destruct rate RUINS the amino acids."The presence of the trap is of no consequence; the point of Miller's experiment was to demonstrate that amino acids could be produced in a theoretical early Earth atmosphere, not to simulate the means by which life itself came to be. "BUT because we NEED evolution we'll PRETEND the biogenesis experiment was LEGITIMATE."Who says that we "NEED" evolution? Evolutionary theory continues to be recognized as accurate not because it is needed by anybody, but because it has been proven countless times to describe the body of evidence without contradiction. "somehow in the process making CELL WALLS (without which DNA cannot exist,"Somebody obviously failed 9th grade biology; while plant cells possess cell walls, animal cells do not. Therefore, the presence of a cell wall can hardly be regarded as necessary for the existence of DNA. "So say ALL PUBLIC SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS!!!"And rightly so; if the purpose of a public school is to present our children with accurate information, there is no excuse for not including the current evolutionary model, as it has zero competition in its ability to describe the body of evdence. "If you read between the LINES of what I wrote, you will see the abject bsurdity of the entire religion; and a religion it very much is."One of the defining aspects of a religion is that it speaks on the nature of the supernatural. Nowhere in evolutionary theory or the Big Bang Theory will you find any such references, therefore, neither can be regarded as religious in nature. "One evolutionist (I forget which) admitted the motivation for evolution was SEXUAL; because 'If we admitted the existence of GOD, then we couldn't engage in any twisted and perverted thing that we DESIRE; so Evolution fills the void left by our rejection of God...'"First off, if you're going to quote somebody, make sure that you know who you are quoting. To present an unattributed quote is irresponsible at best, to expect it to be taken at face value is absurd. Secondly, if the quote truly was provided by a supporter of evolutionary theory, and in the suggested context, such a statement would be an indication only of the individual's beliefs, and not of any scientific conclusion. Once again, science deals only with the natural, never with the supernatural. "The odds of our first CELL getting going is really one chance literally in INFINITY;"That's a good one, and I applaud you for making me laugh. Would you care to provide the calculations which allowed you to arrive at this conclusion? "BTW, evolution has NEVER been observed"On the contrary, evolution has been observed countless times, in the laboratory, the wild, and the fossil record. Your claim is even disputed by the young Earth creationist organization Answers in Genesis in their Arguments we think creationists should NOT use. For examples, please see the evidence presented at the above links, as well as Fossil Hominids, Observed Instances of Speciation, and Some More Observed Speciation Events. "mutations are FAR, FAR more likely to be detrimental than beneficial."Yet beneficial mutations are known to exist and be more likely to be preserved, while detrimental mutations tend to be selected against. "And there is the 'irreducible complexity' problem; such as the 'DNA/CELL-WALL' problem, to 'flying birds'"Having already refuted the "DNA/CELL-WALL problem," I've already done away with half your claim here. As for any problems with "flying birds," the fact that we observe today numerous examples of birds which are more or less adapted for flight than others, as well as several fossils demonstrating the transition from a reptilian ancestor to an avian form, it is quickly apparent that "flying birds" present no difficulty to the evolutionary model. "It takes INCREDIBLE FAITH and effort to not-believe-in-God."While I certainly agree with the statement, it is wholly irrelevant to the discussion, as the relevant theories are neither theistic nor atheistic. Again, science deals only with the natural, never with the supernatural. --got Traf?
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Post by Agape on Sept 7, 2003 7:13:16 GMT -5
So is God matter or does it matter?
Everyone is saying that everything came from something but where did God come from? When I was a non believer that was my biggest problem, not knowing where God came from.
When my daughter had to study evolution in high school she laughed her head off at how stupid the teacher sounded, my dughter is very shy but that was the one time in her life she forgot about her shyness and let everyone in cpkmtyoll know how stupid evolution was and how it made so much more sense to believe in God, at least He offered more proof then the scientist did she told them.
When my kids were growing up I was an athiest, they didn't know it, I taught them about God and sent them to Sunday school, I also taught them about evolution before they even got into high school, they just assumed I was a Christian because I thaught them about God, all I wanted was for them to hear both sides growing up so they could make their own decision, I never preached to them because you can't preach something you don't believe in.
I honestly think that had I believed while they were growing up I would have turned them against God by preaching to them about Him, I see that happening in so many familes. My kids don't care one iota about where God comes from, they say it doesn't MATTER.
You men had some good answers, makes it look like this is a mans field, learned a lot from all of them.
;D
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Post by michaeldark on Sept 7, 2003 12:30:33 GMT -5
So it was totally impossible for God to work through evolution? God could not have done it? Even though the evidence in the physical world points towards it, and even though Genesis can agree with it, God couldn't have done it? Where did you read that? I'm not here to argue,I got kicked off for 2 weeks because I was constantly feeling people werer provoking me. So if you want a fight you aren't going to get one. Now,I didn't say it's not possible for God to have done. I just think Macroevolution goes against where Genesis says "And God made every creature according to their type". I also stated clearly Microevolution does happen,ALOT. So I never said Evolution was impossible. And if you were to have read better,I also stated "ANYTHING is possible" and "If it does occur like Darwin thought,than it's part of God's plan somehow". I hope that clears it up for you. And stop following the Keikikoka\Traffic Demon bandwagon just for the sake of ticking people off. It's not very kindly and it makes me want to turn you into the subject of a Cannble Corpse song. But since their lyrics are so very WRONG I won't mention the title.
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