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Post by Protestant on Jul 27, 2003 20:15:13 GMT -5
If St. Peter was the head of the apostles, certainly the other apostles would have known it. However, they didn't! This is apparent since they argued about which of them was the "greatest," even while Jesus was still living among them!
(a) "Then a dispute arose among them as to which of them would be greatest" (Lk. 9:46).
(b) "Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest" (Lk. 22:24).
Clearly, this last pkmtyolpage occurred after Jesus spoke Mt. 16:18 and in Jesus' presence! Please note that Jesus never corrected them by saying Peter was made the "head" at the point of Mt. 16:18! The other apostles never thought that verse uniquely exalted Peter above themselves, so why should we?
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Post by AmericanBetty on Jul 27, 2003 20:45:57 GMT -5
I don't know of a single Christian denomination that DOES observe the one you talk about. But I repeat that you can observe Saturday Sabbath in my church. What day do you go to church?? You seem intent on attack and low on answers!
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 27, 2003 20:51:13 GMT -5
I don't know of a single Christian denomination that DOES observe the one you talk about. But I repeat that you can observe Saturday Sabbath in my church. What day do you go to church?? You seem intent on attack and low on answers! You can observe it at my Church also! A lot of times, I go both Saturday and Sunday, and Wednesday, and sometimes Mondays! You can go any day to Church at my Church. When my daughter is in school, I go almost every day that I can to Church with her school. And, Saturdays and Sundays are "sacred" around my house. They're our only "family" time together so we pretty much just spend it together - sometimes with "kid" friends over so my younger one can just be a child... God Bless! p.s. Every day is God's day!
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Post by Protestant on Jul 27, 2003 21:04:48 GMT -5
i go to church on saturday the sabbath. NOT sunday. If you are referring to me i am never low on anwsers
When the church or Rome has the political power she has always enforced sunday observance by law. the new catechism encourages catholics to make the governments enact sunday laws. The church of Rome hates the sabbath and exalts the pagan sunday.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 27, 2003 21:06:39 GMT -5
Untrue. Only Saturday is God's day. The other days He has given to us.
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 27, 2003 21:09:26 GMT -5
i go to church on saturday the sabbath. NOT sunday. If you are referring to me i am never low on anwsers When the church or Rome has the political power she has always enforced sunday observance by law. the new catechism encourages catholics to make the governments enact sunday laws. The church of Rome hates the sabbath and exalts the pagan sunday. If the Church or Rome hates the sabbath, why do we have service on Saturday?? Explain that one please...and no, don't use the excuse that it is "just anothe day to them to have service". We have service EVERY day at our Church, therefore Saturday is just as Sacred as any other day - Every day is God's day.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 27, 2003 21:33:57 GMT -5
Exodus 20:8 -11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
The following are from the New Catechism
2181. "The SUNDAY Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.[Cf. CIC, can. 1245.] Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. "
according to this if a christian fails to partake of the sunday eucharist he commits a grave sin. Seems to me that Sunday has a vital importance affecting a persons salvation.
2188. "In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on SUNDAY, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this 'festal gathering,' this 'assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven.'[Heb 12:22-23 .]"
according to this catholics are to approch governments to get sunday recognised as legal holidays by law. what about God's day the Sabbath. Deliberately fogotten.
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Post by RealistState on Jul 27, 2003 21:53:53 GMT -5
If St. Peter was the head of the apostles, certainly the other apostles would have known it. However, they didn't! This is apparent since they argued about which of them was the "greatest," even while Jesus was still living among them! (a) "Then a dispute arose among them as to which of them would be greatest" (Lk. 9:46).
(b) "Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest" (Lk. 22:24). Clearly, this last pkmtyolpage occurred after Jesus spoke Mt. 16:18 and in Jesus' presence! Please note that Jesus never corrected them by saying Peter was made the "head" at the point of Mt. 16:18! The other apostles never thought that verse uniquely exalted Peter above themselves, so why should we? And what does greatest have to do with being a leader? But let's skip down a few lines: Luke 22:31-32"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers." It would appear that Jesus' prayer for Simon's faith and the commission to strengthen his brothers anticipates the post-resurrectional prominence of Peter in the first half of Acts, when he appears as the spokesman for the Christian community and the one who begins the mission to the Gentiles (Acts 10-11).
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 27, 2003 21:58:39 GMT -5
Untrue. Only Saturday is God's day. The other days He has given to us. You seem so intent on ONE commandment - not that the commandment is not to be obeyed - but you seem to focus only on that one. Exodus 20:1-17 And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Why is your focus only on the Sabbath and I don't see you debating about any of the other commandments. Surely, in this day and time, "Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neigbour" are just as important but the Sabbath seems to be the only one you focus on and attribute to "The Papacy as the AntiChrist". What about the other commandments? Are they not just as important? The Coveant God made with the Israelites is often called the Sinai Covenant. The ancient Israelites believed that everyone had to know and observe these rules if God's people were to live together in peace and security. Jesus was the Paschal Sacrifice. His blood is the new and everlasting covenant. Nowhere does it say that the other commandments are to be broken, but His blood is the NEW covenant. We can't and shouldn't EVER forget that and lose THAT focus. THAT should be our focus also...not JUST the Sabbath. In Matthew 5:1-7 Jesus begins with the Beatitudes. And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. How are these words any less important when spoken by our Lord and Savior. AND, if you read far enough into this post, read Matthew 22:34-40 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. AND Mark 12:28-34 28: And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question. So...seems to me your focus shouldn't be only on the Sabbath, but on ALL the commandments the Lord gave us - the most important to Him being the Greatest Commandments - the ones quoted in Matthew and Mark. God Bless!
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Post by RealistState on Jul 27, 2003 22:04:34 GMT -5
Exodus 20:8 -11 " Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. The following are from the New Catechism2181. "The SUNDAY Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.[Cf. CIC, can. 1245.] Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. " according to this if a christian fails to partake of the sunday eucharist he commits a grave sin. Seems to me that Sunday has a vital importance affecting a persons salvation. Sunday Vigil, which occurs on Saturday pretty much covers your concern. As far as Salvation is concerned I know that Catholics and SDAs are worlds apart in that regard and would be better served in a thread of its own. You may have me on this one, though Sunday Blue Laws have been in effect in this country for quite some time. Whether it was instigated by the Catholic Church, I cannot say.
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 27, 2003 22:06:31 GMT -5
Exodus 20:8 -11 " Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. The following are from the New Catechism2181. "The SUNDAY Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.[Cf. CIC, can. 1245.] Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. " according to this if a christian fails to partake of the sunday eucharist he commits a grave sin. Seems to me that Sunday has a vital importance affecting a persons salvation. 2188. "In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on SUNDAY, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this 'festal gathering,' this 'assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven.'[Heb 12:22-23 .]" according to this catholics are to approch governments to get sunday recognised as legal holidays by law. what about God's day the Sabbath. Deliberately fogotten. Maybe you need to focus on and study Matthew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-24 instead of focusing on the Catholic Catechism. It might help in learning to "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Look those up in the Catholic Catechism since you seem to have an unusual obsession with the Catholic Catechism...Blessings...
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Post by Protestant on Jul 27, 2003 22:14:24 GMT -5
Catholics misquote matt 16 to try to prove that Peter was the first Pope.
Matt16: 22Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!" 23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
not a good start for a future leader to be called Satan. Also Peter's faith did fail when he denied Jesus 3 times.
Peter was certainly prominant. But he was not the head of the church and was not the first Pope.
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Post by Protestant on Jul 27, 2003 22:19:49 GMT -5
we focus on this one because its the only one of the ten that the church delights to trample in the mud. I never see any controversy over the others or the Beatitudes.
here we go the "you dont love catholics because you teach that the Papacy is the antichrist" line. Sorry if the truth offends you. I have found a lot of catholics that id rather be friends with than a number of nasty people in my own church. Truth and heresy are not people they are theories and beliefs.
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 27, 2003 22:28:27 GMT -5
we focus on this one because its the only one of the ten that the church delights to trample in the mud. I never see any controversy over the others or the Beatitudes. here we go the "you dont love catholics because you teach that the Papacy is the antichrist" line. Sorry if the truth offends you. Nope, sorry, but don't misquote me. I said that you focus too much on the Catholic Catechism - not "you don't love catholics". Why don't you quote from the Catholic Catechism the scripture about Matthew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-24. If your focus is on ONE of many commandments that the Lord gave us to focus on, and you are choosing ONE that you say the Catholic church misrepresents (which it doesn't) - then is that your belief for the Catholic Church being the Anti-Christ?? You yourself have stated this in your above statement about this focus of yours. And, no, I'm not offended by your statements and misrepresentations. God Bless!
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 27, 2003 22:33:23 GMT -5
we focus on this one because its the only one of the ten that the church delights to trample in the mud. I never see any controversy over the others or the Beatitudes. here we go the "you dont love catholics because you teach that the Papacy is the antichrist" line. Sorry if the truth offends you. I have found a lot of catholics that id rather be friends with than a number of nasty people in my own church. Truth and heresy are not people they are theories and beliefs. And if your reasoning follows, there are many Anti-Christs - Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, etc... (which happen to be Protestant denominations). I don't believe this - just trying to follow your reasoning. God Bless.
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