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Post by Deborah4God on Jul 22, 2003 11:39:21 GMT -5
I guess I misread you. What are your grounds for believing that he is ANTI Christ? Here are a few of my reasons why I believe the pope to be anti christ. First lets take a look at this Verse- Revelation 22 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Now I believe these to be false teachings- and are being added to the inspired word of God- Purgatory Rosary Holy Water Devotions to Icons Peter { the rock of the church} Mary { false teachings of her} pkmtyolm Confession's to Priest Priest not being able to marry and these are only just a few- not to mention that throne the pope sits upon with the inverted cross on it- and I do not post this to attack you or to tell you that you are not a Christian-or to judge you- but just to answer your question about what grounds do I have to think that the pope is anti christ- and the grounds I have are the inspired word of God and the teachings of God vs/ the pope and his teachings and if you would like lets take each one and compare it to what bible scripture and God tells us- but without hate but in and with love for each other- Because I will not defend any religion because I am not here to spread religion but instead to " tell the Good News of Christ" - but I will defend the word of God's each and everytime- God Bless you my sister/brother in Christ YSIC Deborah
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logos
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Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 22, 2003 13:21:25 GMT -5
Deborah- I'm a brother . Although I agree with you that it would be wrong, and blasphemous to add or subtract from the Word of God I don't think that verse states that, it says: 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy It's referring to the Book of Revelation. I believe in Purgatory,Rosary,Holy Water,Devotions to Icons,Peter { the rock of the church},Mary { teachings about her},pkmtyolm,Confession's to Priest,Priest not being able to marry. I also believe in Jesus as Second Person of the Holy Trinity, incarnate who came to earth to free me from my sins as a free and underserving gift. I will not be offended, and I am not trying to be mean or put words in your mouth, but it does stand to reason that I then would be anti Christ. Right? I have Mormon friends who believe many false doctrines and those doctrines are anti (against) Christ but those friends are not. Have you ever read any of the Pope's writings (start to finish)? Or have you ever seen him speak in person? I will start some new threads on the topics you mentioned, and we can discuss them biblically. As for the inverted Cross. Do you know how Peter the Apostle died? He was so humble that he did not feel worthy to be able to be killed the same way that Jesus was killed, so he requested to be crucified UPSIDE DOWN. Since we believe that the Pope is a successor to Peter, it does make sense that there is an inverted Cross on his chair. It was a Christian Symbol before it was a Satanic Symbol. They took it from us! Peace of Christ- logos
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Post by Pietro on Jul 22, 2003 13:35:41 GMT -5
By responding I do not wish to imply that valid teaching is only found in scripture as I have argued elsewhere that Sacred Tradition not only gave us scripture but is in partnership with it for the fullness of the faith. Tradition, Scrpture and Liturgy are from God.
Purgatory
1 Corinthians 3 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Peter 1 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Fire as a symbol for purification, a state we call purgatory.
Rosary
Consists of the Lords Prayer and the Angels greeting to Mary (Luke 1:28) and Elizabeth’s greeting (Luke 1:42)
Holy Water
Symbol of baptism.
Devotions to Icons
You don’t have pictures in your house? Again we must make a distinction between veneration and worship.
Peter {the rock of the church}
Matthew 1616 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that
Mary { false teachings of her} Dealt with under Rosary and Icons. Unless you refer to the teaching regarding her perpetual virginity and assumption into heaven. True, those are based on Sacred Tradition, not scripture that I know of.
pkmtyolm
This truly is an important issue since from ancient times the celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus as he commanded has been an opportunity to enter into the timelessness of God where there is no yesterday, today, or tomorrow but only the eternal present. My heart aches for all who willingly miss out on this greatest sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. It is not a repetition. It is a memorial celebration offered through and with Christ. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice. I can hardly believe that anyone would contest this.
! Cor 10:16 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1 Cor 11 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh aspodfija to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Confession's to Priest
Acts 19 18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
James 5 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Matthew 18 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Priest not being able to marry
Matthew 19 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
1 Corinthians 7 32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
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Post by Deborah4God on Jul 22, 2003 14:18:37 GMT -5
I will start some new threads on the topics you mentioned, and we can discuss them biblically. Good Idea ;D as long as we do it with love for each other and not anger , ok? As for the inverted Cross. Do you know how Peter the Apostle died? He was so humble that he did not feel worthy to be able to be killed the same way that Jesus was killed, so he requested to be crucified UPSIDE DOWN. Since we believe that the Pope is a successor to Peter, it does make sense that there is an inverted Cross on his chair. But as I read it we are still to follow the example Jesus set forth for us not Peter, correct? Yes I agee Peter was a humble man, and wascrucified UPSIDE DOWN. But nevertheless no where in scripture did Jesus tell us to do as Peter did, or to follow the example of Peter- seeing Peter did deny Jesus 3 times . but to Follow Him { Jesus} over any man- So why on earth would the anyone follow any example of Peter or anyone else mention in the bible other then Jesus Christ considering Peter did disown Jesus three times- and yes lied about knowing JesusLuke 22:34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." 1John 2:3-6 "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1John 2:3-6 It was a Christian Symbol before it was a Satanic Symbol. They took it from us! Peace of Christ- logos I never heard of this before, so please who made it a Christian Symbol? I also look forward to discussing these other topics with you-God Bless In His Love Deborah
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 22, 2003 14:47:35 GMT -5
In my opinion as a Catholic there are many Catholics who seem to go overboard with Mary but their veneration only exalts God all the more because there is ALWAYS a distinction between God's creature, Mary and God Himself. There is no blurring or comparison betwen the two. To Catholics that is obvious, intutitive, and goes without saying. That is why these sorts of accusations seem so off the wall to Catholics. Mary and the saints are our brothers and sisters in faith. God is God alone. The statement that "the papacy is the antichrist we are warned about in scripture" is completely absurd since the antichrist denies that Christ has come in the flesh and probably originally referred to the Jews. Genesda, I am sorry that the internet is available for you to spread your poison. The papacy, like any human office is vulnerable to the weakness and foibles of man but is none the less an instrument of the Holy Spirit. No one has responded to my other posts on the origins of orthodoxy and the necessity of an organized authority to deal with heresies. That is the key to understanding the continuity of church authority which, because it requires submission of the individual ego often results in rebellion. We have become so independent in our rugged individualism. "No one can tell me what to do!" It is the source of many problems in cluding abortion:"Can't tell a women what to do with her own body" even though she is not the only one affected. It is the same in all that we do . We saw it in the US decision to go to war with Iraq. "It's our decision" as if the rest of the world has no stake in the matter. God placed us here together as a community to work things out together, not to go our own ways when we are challenged or things aren't to our liking. Instead we should work for shange from within. "Be subject to every human institution for the Lord's sake, whether it be to the king as supreme or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evil doers and the approval of those who do good." (1 Peter 2:13) How much moreso the Church? Amen to everything you said! God Bless!
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logos
Full Member
Posts: 191
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Post by logos on Jul 22, 2003 16:28:22 GMT -5
Good Idea ;D as long as we do it with love for each other and not anger , ok? Deal But as I read it we are still to follow the example Jesus set forth for us not Peter, correct? Yes. Yes I agee Peter was a humble man, and wascrucified UPSIDE DOWN. But nevertheless no where in scripture did Jesus tell us to do as Peter did, or to follow the example of Peter- seeing Peter did deny Jesus 3 times . but to Follow Him { Jesus} over any man- So why on earth would the anyone follow any example of Peter or anyone else mention in the bible other then Jesus Christ considering Peter did disown Jesus three times- and yes lied about knowing Jesus I see your point here. You're worried that as Catholics, we are putting Peter before Jesus. It is okay to admire and show respect (venerate means to admire and respect) for others right? Paul tells us at one point "Imitate ME" (Not Jesus, him!) Does that take away from Jesus? No. Have you heard of the book "Jesus Freaks"? It's about modern day martyrs, we venerate them for what they have done, and we even say that we would like to imitate their commitment and faith. It is the same way with Peter. We admire and Respect Mary's "yes" that she said to the angel. We hope that our faith will be that strong. There is nothing wrong with that. I assure you that no Catholic thinks that Peter, or the Pope are equal to Jesus. No Catholic even believes that it's a matter of degree between God and the Pope, but we all believe that there is an infinite chasm between the holiness and authority of God and of any man. The point is, that following the example of the martyrs, and Paul, and Mary is okay because they are following Jesus. And we never lose sight of Jesus. We do see though that Jesus in fact tells Peter to strengthen the Brethren (Lk 22:32) once he has turned back to Jesus. Peter was the prime apostle, the Rock (Matt 16:18) and his example is important. Having an upside down Cross on the Pope's chair is no more taking away from Jesus as is the statue of the soldiers raising the flag on Iwo Jima does. They are symbols. I never heard of this before, so please who made it a Christian Symbol? Just as the early Christians made the Cross a Christian symbol, or the icthys (sp), or the 'tau', so they made the upside down cross a symbol. If any of this didn't make sense, feel free to ask me. Pax Christi- logos
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Post by RealistState on Jul 22, 2003 20:42:50 GMT -5
Hey ya Brother!! Long time no see!! Great to see ya 'round! Hello Rod! Yep, been a long time!
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Post by RealistState on Jul 22, 2003 20:44:22 GMT -5
Hello RealistState where have you been! ;D I will have to answer your question at another date- ok gotta go- Please stick around I've missed you my brother in Christ- God bless In His Love Deborah Been around. Just haven't had the time to post like I used to.
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Post by RealistState on Jul 22, 2003 20:59:56 GMT -5
But as I read it we are still to follow the example Jesus set forth for us not Peter, correct? Yes I agee Peter was a humble man, and wascrucified UPSIDE DOWN. But nevertheless no where in scripture did Jesus tell us to do as Peter did, or to follow the example of Peter- seeing Peter did deny Jesus 3 times . but to Follow Him { Jesus} over any man- So why on earth would the anyone follow any example of Peter or anyone else mention in the bible other then Jesus Christ considering Peter did disown Jesus three times- and yes lied about knowing JesusIn His Love Deborah And yet, when asked, Peter was the first to recognize who Jesus was....so he must have been pretty special to Our Lord: Matthew 16:13-1913 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 22, 2003 21:03:23 GMT -5
And yet, when asked, Peter was the first to recognize who Jesus was....so he must have been pretty special to Our Lord: Matthew 16:13-1913 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. That was exactly the Scripture I was thinking about when I read that! Does this mean that he is to be worshipped? NO! But he was indeed important and special to our Lord. God Bless!
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 22, 2003 21:04:22 GMT -5
And yet, when asked, Peter was the first to recognize who Jesus was....so he must have been pretty special to Our Lord: Matthew 16:13-1913 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. By the way, good to see you Realist!
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Post by RealistState on Jul 22, 2003 21:06:24 GMT -5
By the way, good to see you Realist! Thanks...good to see you too!
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Post by Pietro on Jul 23, 2003 9:36:26 GMT -5
Actually if you want to talk anti Christ, how about an institution that abolished public prayer and permits abortion and yet we support it financially. I'm taking about our government, of course. And yet we stay, trying to make chamges for the better from within.
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Post by trentroy on Jul 23, 2003 12:50:23 GMT -5
You know, all this "the pope is the antichrist" nonsense reminds me of the nazi's. Wasn't one of their reasons for hating jews that jews were the ones that killed Christ? They conveniently forgot that Christ, along with all of his diciples, were jews.
Just another way to attempt to spread hatred, this time against the catholic denomination. The spread of hatred just goes on and on, doesn't it?
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Post by CatholicChristian on Jul 23, 2003 22:09:59 GMT -5
You know, all this "the pope is the antichrist" nonsense reminds me of the nazi's. Wasn't one of their reasons for hating jews that jews were the ones that killed Christ? They conveniently forgot that Christ, along with all of his diciples, were jews. Just another way to attempt to spread hatred, this time against the catholic denomination. The spread of hatred just goes on and on, doesn't it? For the pope to be "Anti" Christ, it sure doesn't follow along with many of his teachings, evangilism, and dedication of his life to teaching the Word of God. How anyone can put down a man like this is beyond my comprehension. Quotes from the Pope: "In Christ, religion is no longer a blind search for God, but eh response of faith to God who reveals Himself. It is a response in which man speaks to God as his Creator and Father, a response made possible by that one Man, Christ." "To believe means to abandon oneself to the truth of the Word of the living God, knowing and humbly recognizing (as St. Paul says) "how unsearchable are His judgements and how inscrutable His ways." "The attitude of spirit befitting the believer is an attitude of vigilance, the expression of spiritual aspiration to God through faith." "Education in the faith by parents...is alreading being given when the members of a family help each other to grow in faith through the witness of their Christian lives, a witness that is often without words but which perseveres throughout a day-today life lived in accordance with the Gospel." "Only he who accepts his intellectual and moral limits and recognizes that he needs salvation can attain to faith and in faith meet, in Christ, his Redeemer." " Always have the courage and pride of your faith. Deepen it. Get close to Christ, ceaselessly, as living stones in the cornerstone, sure of reaching the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls." "Apart from faith, pain has always been a great riddle of human existence. Ever since Jesus redeemed the world by His pkmtyolpion and death, however, a new perspective has been opened: Through suffering one can grow in self-giving and attain the hightest degree of love...because of Him who "loved us and gave Himself for us." "Let us look now with the 'eyes of faith' to Christ's kingdom, and repeat, 'May Your reign come." "The Lord is always with you...to give all the regenerative power of His Gospel, of His grace, and of His love. Never ignore Him! Never put Him aside!" "Christ rose again so that man may retrieve the authentic meanof of existence, so that man may live his life fully; that man, who comes from God, may live in God." These are not the words of a man who is "Anti" Christ! God Bless.
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