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Post by Maranata on Jul 28, 2003 14:21:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the bump. I don't go online on weekends ;D My pleasure my brohter! OK, so we agree in one thing. Yes that is exactly what I am saying! We may have different calling in the Spirit and also at different levels of understanding. That does not mean that we are not Christians or that we are not saved, or that one of us is wrong. Is just a different calling and function that we have. provably to separate ministries or stuwardship! 1 Agree in thruth can not contradict truth. But even if our faith is the same our logic may not. 2Our Spirit part will interact when we give our selfs compleatly to it. It depends in how much logic do you give and not alow our faith participate (as not letting the Spirit to show you and affected by our human pull will distort it). But as you said if we pray and let the will of GOD be the one intervine then no fault will come! 3 Why? I do not know what is in your heart, and what intruction or plans the Holy Spirit have for you? But you and me are the Church and we are not an institution. You and I are reading the Bible and we are interpreting it as the HS is leading us to do it. So yes, anyone can interpret scripture. You are telling me and I am telling you what we interpret from our reading. So we both can! Suffering for Doing Good 8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compkmtyolpionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. 11He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. 12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."[1] 13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear[2] ; do not be frightened."[3] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[4] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[5] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. I think is talking to all Christians, today, you and me! In how to treat each other as well as how to treat unbelievers so they can see in our acts why we are saved and the changes that Christ has made in our lives! Not to atack them but to show by example and clear consience why we are different! GOD Bless,
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 28, 2003 14:59:47 GMT -5
Yes that is exactly what I am saying! We may have different calling in the Spirit and also at different levels of understanding. That does not mean that we are not Christians or that we are not saved, or that one of us is wrong. Is just a different calling and function that we have. provably to separate ministries or stuwardship! 3 Why? I do not know what is in your heart, and what intruction or plans the Holy Spirit have for you? But you and me are the Church and we are not an institution. You and I are reading the Bible and we are interpreting it as the HS is leading us to do it. So yes, anyone can interpret scripture. You are telling me and I am telling you what we interpret from our reading. So we both can! Ooops, I meant 2Pet 3:16. But that was a nice pkmtyolpage huh? What do you think about 2 Pet 3:16? 1 and 2: Okay. :-/I still feel like you have not addressed my main point. I will try to rephrase it again. What if you read a verse. I say it is red. You say it is blue. Red cannot be blue and blue cannot be red. By definition one of us is wrong. How can we tell who is wrong? Because one of us IS wrong. There is only one truth. Peace- logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 28, 2003 15:56:52 GMT -5
Ooops, I meant 2Pet 3:16. But that was a nice pkmtyolpage huh? What do you think about 2 Pet 3:16? 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. I like this scripture and again in the red bold part is to grow in the grace and knowledge. How are we suppose to grow if we do not read and be fortified in the WORD. The only way we will be able to spot any lawless, ignorant people that distort the word is if we are also ignorant of the WORD. So we need to study the WORD and interpreted as the HS tell us been sure that we are doing this with all our faith in GOD. The only way I can say that either one of us is wrong is if the interpretation is a mayor one and goes against what the Bible tell us to do. For example if you say that to kill is OK, when in the Bible say that is not. But not because some one from the clerigy tells me that is OK I will not contested. Give me an example of something that you may say is blue and I could say is red. Something that the Bible could be taken in a mayor way that we both may not interpret something that could be right under GOD eyes. But lets continue with this discussion and see where we go from here. By the way I am a Baptist but have some Catholic insides. I hope I am not borring you with this argument. GOD Bless,
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 28, 2003 16:16:28 GMT -5
16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. I like this scripture and again in the red bold part is to grow in the grace and knowledge. How are we suppose to grow if we do not read and be fortified in the WORD. The only way we will be able to spot any lawless, ignorant people that distort the word is if we are also ignorant of the WORD. So we need to study the WORD and interpreted as the HS tell us been sure that we are doing this with all our faith in GOD. The only way I can say that either one of us is wrong is if the interpretation is a mayor one and goes against what the Bible tell us to do. For example if you say that to kill is OK, when in the Bible say that is not. But not because some one from the clerigy tells me that is OK I will not contested. Give me an example of something that you may say is blue and I could say is red. Something that the Bible could be taken in a mayor way that we both may not interpret something that could be right under GOD eyes. But lets continue with this discussion and see where we go from here. By the way I am a Baptist but have some Catholic insides. I hope I am not borring you with this argument. GOD Bless, I agree that we are supposed to grow in grace and knowledge, and that we are supposed to read the Word and learn from it. You ask, how are we supposed to grow? If what I'm saying about an authoritative Church is true, then we will still be able to grow even if we receive the teachings from the Church. The early Christians received teachings from the Apostles and they still grew. So too is it possible to receive teachings from the Church (institution) and to grow. As we discuss this, I am seeing more how all my views are intertwined, and how all of yours are two. I cannot accept sola scriptura and personal interpretation without leaving my idea of a visible Church institution. And vice versa for you. An example of contradictory ideas. Again I will use John Chapter 6, the idea of Eucharist. I believe that at pkmtyolm on Sundays I literally eat the Body, blood, soul, and divinity, or Jesus Christ, Son of God, Second Person of the Holy Trinity. I am assuming that as a baptist, you believe that I am simply eating bread. In your eyes, what I do should be an abomination because if you are right, then I am worshipping a piece of bread, I am bowing down to it, and kneeling in front of it. If I am right, then you are not acknowledging the presence of God in the Eucharist. I would say that this is an issue where one of us HAS to be wrong. I see several options here. First, we're both wrong. Let's assume that's not the case. Second, I am right, therefore since you know in your Heart that you do in fact have the Holy Spirit living in you, then you must abondon your idea of personal interpretation because obviously it didn't work here. Third, you are right, therefore I am wrong. I believe something that is not true and I am not really saved because I came to that false conclusion by reading the scriptures and therefore I must not be reading with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Give me other options (you can't say that one of us hasn't had as much revealed to them, because our views are contradictory and therefore by definition, one of them has to be wrong.) Peace Maranata- logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 28, 2003 17:06:57 GMT -5
I agree that we are supposed to grow in grace and knowledge, and that we are supposed to read the Word and learn from it. You ask, how are we supposed to grow? If what I'm saying about an authoritative Church is true, then we will still be able to grow even if we receive the teachings from the Church. The early Christians received teachings from the Apostles and they still grew. So too is it possible to receive teachings from the Church (institution) and to grow. As we discuss this, I am seeing more how all my views are intertwined, and how all of yours are two. I cannot accept sola scriptura and personal interpretation without leaving my idea of a visible Church institution. And vice versa for you. An example of contradictory ideas. Again I will use John Chapter 6, the idea of Eucharist. I believe that at pkmtyolm on Sundays I literally eat the Body, blood, soul, and divinity, or Jesus Christ, Son of God, Second Person of the Holy Trinity. I am assuming that as a baptist, you believe that I am simply eating bread. In your eyes, what I do should be an abomination because if you are right, then I am worshipping a piece of bread, I am bowing down to it, and kneeling in front of it. If I am right, then you are not acknowledging the presence of God in the Eucharist. I would say that this is an issue where one of us HAS to be wrong. I see several options here. First, we're both wrong. Let's assume that's not the case. Second, I am right, therefore since you know in your Heart that you do in fact have the Holy Spirit living in you, then you must abondon your idea of personal interpretation because obviously it didn't work here. Third, you are right, therefore I am wrong. I believe something that is not true and I am not really saved because I came to that false conclusion by reading the scriptures and therefore I must not be reading with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Give me other options (you can't say that one of us hasn't had as much revealed to them, because our views are contradictory and therefore by definition, one of them has to be wrong.) Peace Maranata- logos Oh my brother, you have to choose a controversal point but you have a different person here. So let see what John 6 say shall we... I will put in blue some of my comments OK. Jesus the Bread of Life 25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?" 26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." We nedd to believe in the one GOD sent and that is Jesus Christ. 30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'[3] " 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." So even after they widness that Jesus had feed 4000 people with 2 fish and 3 breads they still ask for more miracles. 34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread." 35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. He who recives Christ and repents will have eternal life and the one that believe in Him will recived the eternal water of life that is the Holy Spirit 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." 41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" 43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[4] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. So His flesh is His teachings and His blood is the sacrifice that He endure for our sins in the cross. And for that reason that we believe in Him and in His sacrifice we recive the ever lastin water of life that is the Holy SpiritMany Disciples Desert Jesus 60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) So many abandone Him because they imagine eating Him literally and not geting His teachings and the believe that He is the Son of GOD the Lamb that died for us. But you have to remember that He also said that not only of bread will sustain man, but the Spirit.Now lets not forget the last supper and this is why you Catholics and me as Baptist celebrate the last suuperLuke 22 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfilment in the kingdom of God. 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me. 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. So yes we have to follow the commandment of the new covenant that we need to eat the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of Him until He comes back again. But He lives in us through the HS. We both are following His commandment and it does not matter if you are doing it believing that is His body and I am doing it in memory of His sacrifize to us. The important thing is that we both are following His WORD! Are you right or I am right, or I am wrong and you are wrong? Or we both are following scripture!
Bless you logos,
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Post by Bondslave on Jul 29, 2003 0:38:27 GMT -5
If what I'm saying about an authoritative Church is true, then we will still be able to grow even if we receive the teachings from the Church. The early Christians received teachings from the Apostles and they still grew. So too is it possible to receive teachings from the Church (institution) and to grow. I don't recall seeing any protestant say that truth couldn't be learned from an institution. After all, institutions are just constructs made up of people. The problem that protestants have arises when one claims that individuals are not capable of interpreting scripture exclusive of the RCC institution defining the meaning of scripture, and that smacks of not giving the Holy Spirit His due. It would appear the apostle John did not believe in institutions controlling the sole accurate interepretation of scripture, check out his words here... John says we have no need for anyone to teach us, we have the Spirit abiding in us. I fail to see how the RCC can read this pkmtyolpage and turn around and claim sole accuracy in interpretation. One option you didn't address is that one side is incorrect, but not honestly open to the leading to the truth of the Spirit. This is not to suggest active dishonesty, but have you ever thought you were open minded in some regard, and then 15 or 20 years later, after having gone through many experiences realized how incorrect and blind and/or naieve you'd been in regard to topic all those years earlier? God bless, Bondslave
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 29, 2003 11:55:13 GMT -5
Bondslave -
The problem that protestants have arises when one claims that individuals are not capable of interpreting scripture exclusive of the RCC institution defining the meaning of scripture, and that smacks of not giving the Holy Spirit His due. I do agree that that is the problem. However, if you start with the premise (that Catholics do) that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, then you will have no problem with the RCC defining the meaning of Scripture. So to answer that question, we need to determine the authenticity of the Authority of the Church.
It would appear the apostle John did not believe in institutions controlling the sole accurate interepretation of scripture, check out his words here... 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2:26-27 John says we have no need for anyone to teach us, we have the Spirit abiding in us. I fail to see how the RCC can read this pkmtyolpage and turn around and claim sole accuracy in interpretation.
If we have no need for anyone to teach us then why did John write 2nd and 3rd John? He realized that he had a certain authority to teach from Jesus. They did not need the teachings and wisdoms of non-believers.
One option you didn't address is that one side is incorrect, but not honestly open to the leading to the truth of the Spirit. This is not to suggest active dishonesty, but have you ever thought you were open minded in some regard, and then 15 or 20 years later, after having gone through many experiences realized how incorrect and blind and/or naieve you'd been in regard to topic all those years earlier?
As I understand it from what Maranata has told me, this option would fall under "one of us is not saved". Maranata is telling me that if we are Christians we have the Holy Spirit who will guide us infallibly. maranata-Yes that is exactly what I am saying![/quote] [/color]
Peace- logos
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 29, 2003 13:36:28 GMT -5
Maranata- I can give a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT interpretation than you by simply highlighting different words and emphasizing different points: v. 30/31 "What sign can you do?" As a challenge, the Jews noted that "our ancestors ate manna in the desert…bread from Heaven." Jesus proceeds puts himself above Moses. v. 32/35 ""My Father gives you the true bread…"-" I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." 41-42 Jesus is taken literally, the Jews murmur, "How can he say 'I have come down from Heaven?'" Jesus doesn't rebuke them. He further pushes his point. Why? Because he had literally come from Heaven. 47/51 "AMEN AMEN, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life… I am the living bread…Whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." Amen= Truth. Starting with Amen Amen emphasizes the importance of what Jesus is saying. 52 "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" They take him literally again. He continues to push his point and not back down. Why? Because he does literally give us his flesh to eat. 53-56 "AMEN AMEN I say to you, unless you eat(trogon) the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats(trogon) my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats(trogon) my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him." (see Jn 15) --Trogon (greek)- literally to gnaw or chew. Eat flesh can mean persecute, (Micah 3:3) but doesn't make sense in context. The only interpretation would be literal.-- 60 "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" (The Greek word used here is "skleros" which means "hard to accept" not "hard to understand.") They understood, but they didn't have the faith to accept it. 62 "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?" i.e. You don't believe this? Well I can do anything, I can even ascend bodily into Heaven. Would you believe me if I did that? Rise above your doubts. And we all know that Jesus did Ascend. 63 "It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life." -Many people will say that this verse proves Jesus was speaking symbolically because the flesh is of no avail. But spirit or spiritual in the Bible never means symbolic. (Jn 4:24, So is God symbolic?. Pneuma = spirit /= symbolic) [1 Cor. 2:12-15 The spirit is able to better understand God.] If you rise above your doubts about the Eucharist, then you are in the spirit, not the flesh. Jesus is not saying, "Eat my flesh, but you'll find it's a waste of time." If he did, this would negate the whole chapter? John 8:15-16: Jesus tells his opponents: "You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me." Also, if the flesh is of no avail then Jn 1:14- "And the Word became flesh…" means nothing. 64 "There are some of you who do not believe." Judas doesn't believe in the Eucharist. This is where Judas falls away. 66 "As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him." This is the only time where people leave Jesus because of doctrinal disputes. If they left because of a misunderstanding, then Jesus lost many followers for nothing, and knew it. God does not deceive. But my Point is, one of us is wrong. Can we agree on that? One of us is wrong because we are holding contradictory views. You said We are not both following scripture. One of us must be perverting it and making it say something that it wasn't intended to say. If you think that we are both right, then you are falling into the secular view of relativism, meaning there is more than one truth. I don't know if I'm making sense. I think something is about to click for one of us..I hope Peace Maranata- Logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 29, 2003 14:12:09 GMT -5
Dear Logos,
At pkmtyolm during the Eucharist if you follow the pkmtyolm you are not doing John 6 but Luke 22
16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfilment in the kingdom of God. 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me. 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
In John 6 He is talking to others about His sacrifice as the Lamb og GOD and His flesh (His body) that was going to be sacrifice and put to dead. His blood that got spiled that is the ecense of life. He did not cut Him self and give His body but instead part the bread and say this is my body (this is the symbol of my flesh in the world and in the cross) take it in remembrance of me. And then He took the wine and say. This is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you (in the cross). Remember that they are celebrating pkmtyolp over and when GOD took the Jews from Egypt they ate a lamb and mark the doorways with the blood of that lamb. And GOD made a covenant with them. Well Jesus is the Lamb of GOD and with this we celebrate His sacrifice for our sins in the cross. When you accepted Christ and recived the HS you recived His blood and became His flesh. Because He is the one that rules in you so became part of you and you part of Him. One body, one flesh, one GOD, one blood, one baptisim. In Him, for Him with Him! For ever and ever AMEN!
When you celebrate the Eucharist you are agnowledging that He is part of you and you are part of Him. You no longer belong to the world but to GOD!
If Christ is in you how are you going to eat yourself? In the Baptism you died to sin and are born into Jesus, unless that is not what the RCC believes and teach! If that is the case then reconcider and give your self to the HS to guide you and not a human! With all your respect.
Bless you Logos,
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logos
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Post by logos on Jul 29, 2003 15:07:42 GMT -5
Maranata- I can't go on much longer. I feel like we're not really getting anywhere anymore. I gave you examples of contradictory views but I never got an answer as to who was wrong. You and I hold contradictory views about Eucharist and communion yet you will not say that one of us is wrong. If you just don't understand what I'm saying then I would suggest that you start studying more about relativism and absolutism. If you feel threatened and are trying to avoid my points then I will back off, and ask you to please pray about it. I have enjoyed our discussion (we really dominated this thread huh?) The problem is, if I give you one proof that personal interpretation doesn't work, then my reasoning might not work on another protestant because there are so many views (i.e. Christ is divided, and we are not one). Are you okay with stopping now? Peace, Love, Hope and Joy of Christ- logos
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Post by Maranata on Jul 29, 2003 15:41:44 GMT -5
Maranata- I can't go on much longer. I feel like we're not really getting anywhere anymore. I gave you examples of contradictory views but I never got an answer as to who was wrong. You and I hold contradictory views about Eucharist and communion yet you will not say that one of us is wrong. If you just don't understand what I'm saying then I would suggest that you start studying more about relativism and absolutism. If you feel threatened and are trying to avoid my points then I will back off, and ask you to please pray about it. I have enjoyed our discussion (we really dominated this thread huh?) The problem is, if I give you one proof that personal interpretation doesn't work, then my reasoning might not work on another protestant because there are so many views (i.e. Christ is divided, and we are not one). Are you okay with stopping now? Peace, Love, Hope and Joy of Christ- logos As you wish my brother and yes I think we did dominated this thread and with out offending each other! That was a miracle in itself! ;D The same way that you concider that you give examples I think I did. I do not like relativism or absolutism. My conclusion will be that we both have our interpretation of the Bible according to our belief and representation of our particular faith. I will like to agree to desagree. We make good points and hope that other people may learn from what we presented here all for the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ and Jehovah. That the Lord keep you and guide you in your walk! And remember that you have a brother in Christ. We will still see each other in the board. ybiC,
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Post by Maranata on Jul 29, 2003 17:11:58 GMT -5
I don't recall seeing any protestant say that truth couldn't be learned from an institution. After all, institutions are just constructs made up of people. The problem that protestants have arises when one claims that individuals are not capable of interpreting scripture exclusive of the RCC institution defining the meaning of scripture, and that smacks of not giving the Holy Spirit His due. It would appear the apostle John did not believe in institutions controlling the sole accurate interepretation of scripture, check out his words here... John says we have no need for anyone to teach us, we have the Spirit abiding in us. I fail to see how the RCC can read this pkmtyolpage and turn around and claim sole accuracy in interpretation. One option you didn't address is that one side is incorrect, but not honestly open to the leading to the truth of the Spirit. This is not to suggest active dishonesty, but have you ever thought you were open minded in some regard, and then 15 or 20 years later, after having gone through many experiences realized how incorrect and blind and/or naieve you'd been in regard to topic all those years earlier? God bless, Bondslave Bondslave thank you for your post, I think we come more or less from the same way of seen things that we suppose to interpret scripture individually and do not need the institution to tell us what to believe or not. But to relay in the HS for our instruction. Thank you again and hope that this debate have help any one to the need of reading the Bible and not depend on any institution for learning about the WORD of GOD! GOD Bless,
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Post by Bondslave on Jul 29, 2003 21:37:55 GMT -5
Bondslave - The problem that protestants have arises when one claims that individuals are not capable of interpreting scripture exclusive of the RCC institution defining the meaning of scripture, and that smacks of not giving the Holy Spirit His due. I do agree that that is the problem. However, if you start with the premise (that Catholics do) that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, then you will have no problem with the RCC defining the meaning of Scripture. So to answer that question, we need to determine the authenticity of the Authority of the Church. Actually, I'd suggest that one needs to back up one step futher. The issue is not the Authority of the Church, but the definition OF the Church. Is the church a hiarchy of mostly European men who have taken a vow of celibacy (contrary to Biblical teaching), or is the Church the entirety of the Body of Christ made up of all the believers? If you say it's the former, then I say your church has no basis for authority as it's a construct of man. If you say it's the latter than we'd have common ground and would be able to move forward in regard to the authority of the Church as well as the illumination as provided by the Holy Spirit for the edification of that Body, the Church. Very nice try. Firstly, not everyone is perfectly in tune with the Holy Spirit, therefore there will be many who are in need of teaching/mentoring, at least until they've grown closer in their walk with the Lord. Secondly, your question is well asked, but not with real intent. This is the very short synopsis from Blue Letter Bible on the books of 2 John and 3 John in response to your question... Now clearly this is a gross simplification of the material, but look especially at the 2nd letter's description. It's a warning against false teachers. Now look again at the scripture I'd quoted from 1st John... So John wrote 2nd John as a further support of his warning to a new believer in regard to false teachers who are trying to deceive the brethern. The letter tie in exactly. Now thirdly, I have not stated anywhere, nor does the Bible, that truth and information can NOT be found from others. That is a twisting of what protestants state. God very well could use institutions (and I would assume He does). But it is contrary to the scripture I quoted to suggest that God could NOT[/b] use various individuals independant of the RCC for teaching and the truth. I didn't see your response to this comment of mine from the previous post... Bondslave previously: I fail to see how the RCC can read this pkmtyolpage and turn around and claim sole accuracy in interpretation. I am not able to speak for Maranata, but I can restate something I'd stated previously in a slightly different fashion. And that is, it is a gross oversimplification to draw the conclusion that either everyone interprets the Bible 100% accurately, or they are not saved. By the same logic then, the RCC is invalid because there were inaccurate teachings promulgated by the RCC and therefore those in authority are not saved and therefore are not justifiably authoritative. (and as just one example I'd point to selling indulgences, I know you'd ask for at least one example). As I stated previously, not everyone who is saved listens and obeys the Holy Spirit 100% (one could argue no one does/did...except Jesus). Additionally, as was pointed out by others, not all differing views on scripture are exclusive and therefore false. Remember that we're a Body, and not all are the same portion of the Body. Not all are given the gift of teaching...but ALL are given the downpayment of the Holy Spirit. I still don't see how the RCC could possibly agree that every true believer is given the Holy Spirit, but that the Spirit can't function in helping the vast majority of us. One last point... I have no desire to take up 2 by 4's and whack back and forth (not to suggest we've arrived at that). And I saw that you'd suggested to Maranata that you'd like to drop the discussion. So if that is your wish, that is fine...or if you wish to continue for a bit that is fine as well, but I don't want you to feel obiligated. God bless, Bondslave
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Post by Archangelwolf on Jul 31, 2003 3:25:34 GMT -5
This has been a very interesting topic for me. I mainly just read everyone's posts; although I did reply a few times.
I must admit, logos, you have good arguments; but I have to say that Maranatha has me convinced. I definitely believe that we are all given the power of interpretation through the Holy Spirit. I also believe that the Eucharist is symbolic.
I consider myself non-denominational, although I was raised a Baptist. I could never be a Baptist again, however; because I feel led to disagree with many of their doctrines, as well. Especially, "once saved, always saved."
The Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist, the Papal bureaucracy, as well as Marian theology, are the main obstacles for me ever becoming Catholic. However, I pray for your growth in Jesus Christ in spite of my beliefs.
Thanks for the very informative debate, ladies and gentlemen.
Regards,
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Post by Maranata on Jul 31, 2003 8:35:27 GMT -5
This has been a very interesting topic for me. I mainly just read everyone's posts; although I did reply a few times. I must admit, logos, you have good arguments; but I have to say that Maranatha has me convinced. I definitely believe that we are all given the power of interpretation through the Holy Spirit. I also believe that the Eucharist is symbolic. I consider myself non-denominational, although I was raised a Baptist. I could never be a Baptist again, however; because I feel led to disagree with many of their doctrines, as well. Especially, "once saved, always saved." The Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist, the Papal bureaucracy, as well as Marian theology, are the main obstacles for me ever becoming Catholic. However, I pray for your growth in Jesus Christ in spite of my beliefs. Thanks for the very informative debate, ladies and gentlemen. Regards, Archangeldream, Thank you for opening this thread, it has been fun and educational as well as respectfull. I have a very high regard for others points of views especialy Logos that was so kind to keep posting and ask. We both have a strong hold and stand in our believes but think that the Holy Spirit is working in both of us. I do not know what is the plan of GOD for each of us. What I do know is that we are in a chess board and GOD have position us some times as peons or bishops, knights or towers and we all have our own special way to move along the board for the same pourpose, His Glory! Thank you again Archangeldream and GOD Bless,
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