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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 7, 2003 10:08:03 GMT -5
You did your best. Some of my actions were indefensible. Posting those private e-mails was the wrong thing to do and I accepted my judgment. Actually, I thought I was only banned from that one section - because I still had privileges in other areas. But my question about the new moderator was valid. And for them to guelch the evidence was terribly suspect. As I say, you did your best. I think I accomplished what I was trying to do. My goal was to shine a light on what seemed to be a very fishy situation and I think I accomplished that. I agree with you, the moderator situation should have been questioned. Anyway I am glad it is over, I do stand by my motives and the questions I raised about it. Just so you understand my motives regardless of what others thought were not to defend your actions. To be honest I did not even see any of the posts that led to you being removed, in fact I did not even know you before that happened. Many thought we were friends or something and they accused me of having some sort of conspiracy with you, which was untrue. There was some alliances going on that were unhealthy and the moderator was deleting posts at will without any kind of guidance and or accountablity to anyone. When you have alliances and moderators that are not accountable to anyone it can lead to corruption and unfairness and I think it was headed in that direction. The situation is much better here and it seems to be back to normal. I dont want to get back into this to deep but lets just say I am very glad that the alliances are over and that we can speak freely about this. I was sorry to see the LB boards go away but I was not sorry to see some of the other things end along with it. Jesus works in mysterious ways sometimes.
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 7, 2003 10:13:36 GMT -5
Actually Semper. I have studied Matt. 24 extensively and also the parallel accounts in Mark and Luke. The parallel accounts paint a picture, when contrasted with Matt. , that contradicts what you say. Luke says that there will be armies encompkmtyolping the city and then those in Judea should flee. Why would Jesus tell US about leaving Judea? Why is it important to US that the city be encompkmtyolped and why is the city being surrounded in place of the abomination? If you want to say that "end of the age" means end of the world then you missed~ Isa 45:17 [But] Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.Isaiah predicted in chapter 65: God would destroy Israel, create a new people with a new name, and give them a new heaven and new earth, vs. 7ff. These are Covenant Worlds not physical worlds. This is what Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 when he predicted the fall of Jerusalem: "heaven and earth shall pkmtyolp away but my word shall never pkmtyolp away" vs. 35. Hebrews 12 speaks of the pkmtyolping of the heaven and earth, established at Sinai, and the deliverance of the unshakable kingdom of God, the church, 12:21-28. Revelation speaks of the new heaven and earth that would come when the city "where our Lord was crucified" was destroyed, 11:8; 21:1f. The Bible does not speak of the end of time. Fear of Armageddon is unfounded. All forms of futurist interpretations will constantly hold people in needless fear of the future. Heaven and Earth have already pkmtyolped. The kingdom of God rules in the lives of the obedient. Don't fear the future — trust Him who holds the future! Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare [it]? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are pkmtyolped away; behold, all things are become new. Seems to me that 2 Corinthians tells us that Rev. 21:5 was fulfilled.... Guidemlord, I dont think I said anything about the timeframe you studied Matthew 24, but it says what is says. The bible is clear on a what is to come for those that want to spend time actually reading what is says. The prophecies are pretty clear about a coming ruler and what is to happen before the return of Christ.
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 7, 2003 10:35:32 GMT -5
Actually Semper. I have studied Matt. 24 extensively and also the parallel accounts in Mark and Luke. The parallel accounts paint a picture, when contrasted with Matt. , that contradicts what you say. Luke says that there will be armies encompkmtyolping the city and then those in Judea should flee. Why would Jesus tell US about leaving Judea? Why is it important to US that the city be encompkmtyolped and why is the city being surrounded in place of the abomination? If you want to say that "end of the age" means end of the world then you missed~ Isa 45:17 [But] Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.Isaiah predicted in chapter 65: God would destroy Israel, create a new people with a new name, and give them a new heaven and new earth, vs. 7ff. These are Covenant Worlds not physical worlds. This is what Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 when he predicted the fall of Jerusalem: "heaven and earth shall pkmtyolp away but my word shall never pkmtyolp away" vs. 35. Hebrews 12 speaks of the pkmtyolping of the heaven and earth, established at Sinai, and the deliverance of the unshakable kingdom of God, the church, 12:21-28. Revelation speaks of the new heaven and earth that would come when the city "where our Lord was crucified" was destroyed, 11:8; 21:1f. The Bible does not speak of the end of time. Fear of Armageddon is unfounded. All forms of futurist interpretations will constantly hold people in needless fear of the future. Heaven and Earth have already pkmtyolped. The kingdom of God rules in the lives of the obedient. Don't fear the future — trust Him who holds the future! Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare [it]? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are pkmtyolped away; behold, all things are become new. Seems to me that 2 Corinthians tells us that Rev. 21:5 was fulfilled.... Guideme. With all due respect. Lets stick with Matthew 24 - we dont have to look any further than the scripture written there to see what Christ was talking about. If Christ was talking about things in the disciples lifetime why would he talk about his second coming and judgement of the world, which ties in with the end of revelation. Really it is ridiculous to debate this because it states in Matthew 24 that there will be a time unequaled in distress and then directly after the distress of those days a Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky and he will gather his elect. In other words he will return to the earth to set up his kingdom. hence he answers the disciples question what will be a sign of your coming and the end of the age. Did Christ return in the disciples lifetime? What is it about that scripture that is not clear to you?
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 8, 2003 2:21:52 GMT -5
Guideme. With all due respect. Lets stick with Matthew 24 - we dont have to look any further than the scripture written there to see what Christ was talking about. If Christ was talking about things in the disciples lifetime why would he talk about his second coming and judgement of the world, which ties in with the end of revelation. Really it is ridiculous to debate this because it states in Matthew 24 that there will be a time unequaled in distress and then directly after the distress of those days a Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky and he will gather his elect. In other words he will return to the earth to set up his kingdom. hence he answers the disciples question what will be a sign of your coming and the end of the age. Did Christ return in the disciples lifetime? What is it about that scripture that is not clear to you? What isn't clear to me is why you profess ( if you do, because I don't really know whether you do or not.. but for the sake of the argument...) that Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords, God dwells with you... The Joy of the Lord is my Strength.. If you believe all those things then why are you still waiting for Satan to be cast down from heaven, the tabernacle (Jesus) to return to a building on earth (1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? ). Are you still waiting for Jesus to finish what He started? To adopt you into the family of God... His Kingdom? I think that we are currently under the rule of Jesus Christ our King.. the one that the Jews believed would come and conquer the world for them... and it seems as if you are saying that the second time He comes He will come and conquer the world so only the good people are left... Didn't Jesus bring salvation so that we will be able to live righteous lives ON EARTH? What need do we have of a saviour in heaven? I really don't understand why you have to get irritated and say "What is it about that scripture that is not clear to you?" I guess I could say the same thing to you. Let's keep in mind that you and I have different opinions of the scripture but have valid points in each. I will keep it in mind, anyway...
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 8, 2003 9:45:44 GMT -5
What isn't clear to me is why you profess ( if you do, because I don't really know whether you do or not.. but for the sake of the argument...) that Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords, God dwells with you... The Joy of the Lord is my Strength.. If you believe all those things then why are you still waiting for Satan to be cast down from heaven, the tabernacle (Jesus) to return to a building on earth (1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? ). Are you still waiting for Jesus to finish what He started? To adopt you into the family of God... His Kingdom? I think that we are currently under the rule of Jesus Christ our King.. the one that the Jews believed would come and conquer the world for them... and it seems as if you are saying that the second time He comes He will come and conquer the world so only the good people are left... Didn't Jesus bring salvation so that we will be able to live righteous lives ON EARTH? What need do we have of a saviour in heaven? I really don't understand why you have to get irritated and say "What is it about that scripture that is not clear to you?" I guess I could say the same thing to you. Let's keep in mind that you and I have different opinions of the scripture but have valid points in each. I will keep it in mind, anyway... I am not irritated at all... your comments confuse me a little. I am not sure what you believe so it is hard for me to comment. I will try to answer your questions. Do I believe Jesus will finish what he started? The answer to that question is yes. Christ did die for our sins but he has not returned to set up his 1000 year millenial kingdom, defeat Satan and judge the world yet. If you believe that this has happened, please let us all know what year because as far as I know Jesus is not physically living on the earth. Scripture makes it clear that the man of lawlessness will make his appearance on the earth directly before Christ returns and the prophecies surrounding that have not happened. So the only thing I am having a problem with is how you can think like you do after reading the entire bible, taking into consideration that Christ said he would return to defeat Satan and rule on the earth physically. That is why I centered in on Matthew 24. I think it is pretty clear that the disciples are asking Christ what will happen at the end of the age and when he returns. So he tells them. Obviously this was not for the disciples because they are not living now and Christ has not returned to set up his millenial kingdom as promised. So when I ask what part of the scripture do you not understand in Matthew 24 it is not that it is irritating or making me mad. I am simply asking are you blind to what it is saying or do you simply not understand it, because it is very clear to me. So I take it from what you have written that you think God has finished what is written and that Satan has been defeated? If that is the case are we now in Heaven dwelling with Christ? Has the battle of Armageddon taken place? Has the world Mourned when they looked up and saw Jesus coming back on the clouds as clearly as lightning goes from the east to the west? Has Jesus ruled for 1000 years on the earth? Has the period of great distress containing the Seal, Trumpet and bowl judgements come to pkmtyolp? Have the two witnesses preached from Jerusalem for 1240 days? I could go on and on. Are we to discount the promises from God and the Prophets about what is to come. Or do we just make up our own version and discount what is written in scripture? Do you think that Satan has been defeated and that Christs work is done? Obviously if you believe that then where is the promise. Just look at your headlines today and look at all the crime, disease, greed, destruction and warring that is going on in the world. Rightousness does live in the world today through Christs believers but unfortunately at this point so does Satan. That evil will not be defeated until Christ returns to the earth and defeats him as it is written in Revelation 19. Only then will the rest of the world be free from the influence of Satan.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 8, 2003 13:27:40 GMT -5
I am not irritated at all... your comments confuse me a little. I am not sure what you believe so it is hard for me to comment. I will try to answer your questions. Do I believe Jesus will finish what he started? The answer to that question is yes. Christ did die for our sins but he has not returned to set up his 1000 year millenial kingdom, defeat Satan and judge the world yet. If you believe that this has happened, please let us all know what year because as far as I know Jesus is not physically living on the earth. Scripture makes it clear that the man of lawlessness will make his appearance on the earth directly before Christ returns and the prophecies surrounding that have not happened. So the only thing I am having a problem with is how you can think like you do after reading the entire bible, taking into consideration that Christ said he would return to defeat Satan and rule on the earth physically. That is why I centered in on Matthew 24. I think it is pretty clear that the disciples are asking Christ what will happen at the end of the age and when he returns. So he tells them. Obviously this was not for the disciples because they are not living now and Christ has not returned to set up his millenial kingdom as promised. So when I ask what part of the scripture do you not understand in Matthew 24 it is not that it is irritating or making me mad. I am simply asking are you blind to what it is saying or do you simply not understand it, because it is very clear to me. So I take it from what you have written that you think God has finished what is written and that Satan has been defeated? If that is the case are we now in Heaven dwelling with Christ? Has the battle of Armageddon taken place? Has the world Mourned when they looked up and saw Jesus coming back on the clouds as clearly as lightning goes from the east to the west? Has Jesus ruled for 1000 years on the earth? Has the period of great distress containing the Seal, Trumpet and bowl judgements come to pkmtyolp? Have the two witnesses preached from Jerusalem for 1240 days? I could go on and on. Are we to discount the promises from God and the Prophets about what is to come. Or do we just make up our own version and discount what is written in scripture? Do you think that Satan has been defeated and that Christs work is done? Obviously if you believe that then where is the promise. Just look at your headlines today and look at all the crime, disease, greed, destruction and warring that is going on in the world. Rightousness does live in the world today through Christs believers but unfortunately at this point so does Satan. That evil will not be defeated until Christ returns to the earth and defeats him as it is written in Revelation 19. Only then will the rest of the world be free from the influence of Satan. Great! I am glad you aren't irritated. I see that the thing you don't understand is that I don't believe God will ever live physically on earth. Why? First, (Exd 29:45) And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God. says that God will dwell among the children of Israel, yet (1Ki 8:27) But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? and expounded in: (2Ch 6:18) But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built! So if God cannot be contained on earth, nor even the heavens.. He will not ever physically dwell on earth... In fact according to Rom 8:9 ( But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.), once you are "saved" from eternal death (second death) God dwells with you. So when I see Rev 21:3 ( And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. ) and Zec 8:8 9( And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. ) I know that these have been fulfilled, unless you discount some scripture as uninspired I guess... I believe these things have been fulfilled according to 2Cr 6:16 9( And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. I know that it is the Spirit of God that dwells with men, not God physically.) The Jewish leaders in Jesus' time thought that the prophecy in Jeremiah was "in the flesh" too, and that is why they missed their Messiah.. Jesus taught that the Spirit of God would dwell with men then in the man's last day, the man would die and go to heaven to live eternally in a heavenly, resurrected body. I believe that the Old Covenant was for God's chosen people as a group, which is why the High Priest would make sacrifices for the people. Now that our High Priest, Jesus Christ, has made an everlasting sacrifice and New Covenant for all people, we are counted individually... That means all things are done in their own time not as it seems to be in Revelation. That's my Point Of View....
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 8, 2003 14:18:48 GMT -5
Great! I am glad you aren't irritated. I see that the thing you don't understand is that I don't believe God will ever live physically on earth. Why? First, (Exd 29:45) And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God. says that God will dwell among the children of Israel, yet (1Ki 8:27) But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? and expounded in: (2Ch 6:18) But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built! So if God cannot be contained on earth, nor even the heavens.. He will not ever physically dwell on earth... In fact according to Rom 8:9 ( But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.), once you are "saved" from eternal death (second death) God dwells with you. So when I see Rev 21:3 ( And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. ) and Zec 8:8 9( And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. ) I know that these have been fulfilled, unless you discount some scripture as uninspired I guess... I believe these things have been fulfilled according to 2Cr 6:16 9( And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. I know that it is the Spirit of God that dwells with men, not God physically.) The Jewish leaders in Jesus' time thought that the prophecy in Jeremiah was "in the flesh" too, and that is why they missed their Messiah.. Jesus taught that the Spirit of God would dwell with men then in the man's last day, the man would die and go to heaven to live eternally in a heavenly, resurrected body. I believe that the Old Covenant was for God's chosen people as a group, which is why the High Priest would make sacrifices for the people. Now that our High Priest, Jesus Christ, has made an everlasting sacrifice and New Covenant for all people, we are counted individually... That means all things are done in their own time not as it seems to be in Revelation. That's my Point Of View.... OK, I am going to post a few pieces of scripture out of litterally hundreds or even thousands of verses that speak of future prophecy of Christs return and what is to come. Christ is in Heaven at the right hand of the Father now, but it is predicted and written that he will return to set up his kingdom. This is predicted in many books of the bible. To buy into your viewpoints you have to literally discount hundreds of pages of scripture. I just cannot do that, the word of God is truth and it is sharper than a double edge sword. It is not to be discounted or twisted into what we want it to be. Why would you think that Christ is not going to rule from the earth when it states multiple times that he will appear to every eye as clear as lightning is from the east to the west and he will return in the same way the he left? Again, to subscribe to your view you have to discount much of the bible. What faith do you have if you do not believe what the word of God says in its entirety? Revelation 19:11 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[1] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 20 The Thousand Years 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Matthew 24 29"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3] 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[6] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Acts 1 Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven 1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[1] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." 6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 8, 2003 15:17:45 GMT -5
OK, I am going to post a few pieces of scripture out of litterally hundreds or even thousands of verses that speak of future prophecy of Christs return and what is to come. Christ is in Heaven at the right hand of the Father now, but it is predicted and written that he will return to set up his kingdom. This is predicted in many books of the bible. To buy into your viewpoints you have to literally discount hundreds of pages of scripture. I just cannot do that, the word of God is truth and it is sharper than a double edge sword. It is not to be discounted or twisted into what we want it to be. Why would you think that Christ is not going to rule from the earth when it states multiple times that he will appear to every eye as clear as lightning is from the east to the west and he will return in the same way the he left? Again, to subscribe to your view you have to discount much of the bible. What faith do you have if you do not believe what the word of God says in its entirety? Revelation 19:11 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[1] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 20 The Thousand Years 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Matthew 24 29"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3] 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[6] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Acts 1 Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven 1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[1] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." 6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Can you explain how you view this, then: Heb. 10- 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 16This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; being fulfilled in Eph 1 as in: 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, This reads as if not only that God has put "all things under His feet" but that it happens in "this world" and that "which is to come." How does that fit with your understanding of Hebrews 10? Hebrews 10 describes Jesus going up to The Father and sitting at the right hand of God while waiting for all things to be put under His feet. After everything is put under His feet everything is new...(Heb. 10 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Also, If as the Old Testament claims, God cannot dwell on earth..(1 Kings 8:27;2Cr 6:16 9 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ) I know that it is the Spirit of God that dwells with men, but also this denotes that it is not God physically... How does that fit in with the New Heaven and New Earth description? Which pkmtyolpage is being spiritualized?
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 10, 2003 11:42:38 GMT -5
Can you explain how you view this, then: Heb. 10- 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 16This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; being fulfilled in Eph 1 as in: 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, This reads as if not only that God has put "all things under His feet" but that it happens in "this world" and that "which is to come." How does that fit with your understanding of Hebrews 10? Hebrews 10 describes Jesus going up to The Father and sitting at the right hand of God while waiting for all things to be put under His feet. After everything is put under His feet everything is new...(Heb. 10 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Also, If as the Old Testament claims, God cannot dwell on earth..(1 Kings 8:27;2Cr 6:16 9 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ) I know that it is the Spirit of God that dwells with men, but also this denotes that it is not God physically... How does that fit in with the New Heaven and New Earth description? Which pkmtyolpage is being spiritualized? Guideme. I am still not sure what you believe. The bible states that there will be a coming period of distress and then Jesus will come back to set up his kingdom, and throw Satan in the pit for 1000 years. After the 1000 year rule Satan will be loosed from his pit and he will have one more chance to go and deceive the world for a short time. Then Jesus will defeat him completely and he will be thrown into the lake of fire with the false prophet and the Antichrist, as it is written in Revelation. This will usher in the New Jerusalem and believers will be with God forever. There are hundreds of prophetic quotes throughout the old and new testament about this taking place starting with the Old Testament prophets like Daniel and Ezekiel going through to Paul and John in Revelation. I cant debate with you on details because you have not stated what you believe. The past few posts you have posted scripture that in my opinon really does not have anything to do with what we are discussing in terms of the relevance of the tribulation period, Christ returning and setting up his 1000 year kingdom ect... For example, take a look at this.. being fulfilled in Eph 1 as in: 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, What in this scripture goes against anything that I am claiming or saying. This is basically saying that Christ is ruler over all things in Heaven and in Earth. Nothing I am saying is taking away from the power of Jesus Christ who is going to come back and set up his kingdom over all. It is as if you think that by my comments I am saying God is not going to have power over all things. When Jesus returns he will defeat Satan and judge the world and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. All things will fall under his rule as they do right now. All power was given to Christ the Son when he died on the cross and rose from the dead. He now sits at the right hand of the Father until the things I have mentioned come to pkmtyolp. Also on your comments that God cannot dwell on the earth. God did dwell on the earth in the form of Jesus Christ as a human being. He will again return as promised by scripture, through Christs own writing in Matthew 24 to rule and usher in the eternity for believers. This can be confirmed by Daniel 2 when it speaks of the rock that will come and destroy the empire represented in the Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The final empire to come will produce the Antichrist and he will try to take over the world. But, Jesus as symbolized as a giant piece of stone will come and smash the feet and fill up the entire world. This is Christs coming kingdom. Daniel 2 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. The Rock is Christ and his coming kingdom. Notice it states that it filled the whole earth.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 10, 2003 15:29:23 GMT -5
Guideme. I am still not sure what you believe. The bible states that there will be a coming period of distress and then Jesus will come back to set up his kingdom, and throw Satan in the pit for 1000 years. After the 1000 year rule Satan will be loosed from his pit and he will have one more chance to go and deceive the world for a short time. Then Jesus will defeat him completely and he will be thrown into the lake of fire with the false prophet and the Antichrist, as it is written in Revelation. This will usher in the New Jerusalem and believers will be with God forever. There are hundreds of prophetic quotes throughout the old and new testament about this taking place starting with the Old Testament prophets like Daniel and Ezekiel going through to Paul and John in Revelation. I cant debate with you on details because you have not stated what you believe. The past few posts you have posted scripture that in my opinon really does not have anything to do with what we are discussing in terms of the relevance of the tribulation period, Christ returning and setting up his 1000 year kingdom ect... For example, take a look at this.. being fulfilled in Eph 1 as in: 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, What in this scripture goes against anything that I am claiming or saying. This is basically saying that Christ is ruler over all things in Heaven and in Earth. Nothing I am saying is taking away from the power of Jesus Christ who is going to come back and set up his kingdom over all. It is as if you think that by my comments I am saying God is not going to have power over all things. When Jesus returns he will defeat Satan and judge the world and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. All things will fall under his rule as they do right now. All power was given to Christ the Son when he died on the cross and rose from the dead. He now sits at the right hand of the Father until the things I have mentioned come to pkmtyolp. Also on your comments that God cannot dwell on the earth. God did dwell on the earth in the form of Jesus Christ as a human being. He will again return as promised by scripture, through Christs own writing in Matthew 24 to rule and usher in the eternity for believers. This can be confirmed by Daniel 2 when it speaks of the rock that will come and destroy the empire represented in the Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The final empire to come will produce the Antichrist and he will try to take over the world. But, Jesus as symbolized as a giant piece of stone will come and smash the feet and fill up the entire world. This is Christs coming kingdom. Daniel 2 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. The Rock is Christ and his coming kingdom. Notice it states that it filled the whole earth. That is what I am saying! You can't tell me (well you can but I won't believe it ) that God/Christ is ruler over all things in one breath and then tell me that He is coming again to become ruler over all things!! Why can't all those things be true? EPH. 1 shows that Christ DOES have all things under His feet! Christ is our King.. We don't have to wait for it to happen, wouldn't you agree? Some say "MY God Reigns" but yet in the next breath say "when Christ comes back to reign...."?? How is that? See, I hear people all day long (not every day though LOL) tell me that Jesus has done this and that which sounds like it is right out of the book of Rev. but call them on it and it hasn't happened yet. For example, The other day a man said (paraphrasing here) "Jesus Christ is our King! I will serve in His kingdom until He comes again." Isn't the end of Revelation about US serving in His kingdom? If we are doing that now and Christ is ruler over all... WHAT ELSE IS LEFT FOR CHRIST TO DO? That is all I wonder. All I was getting at. I know it is confusing. I would have been confused by myself about 9 mos ago, but if you read the last chapter of Revelation purely spiritually... These are things we as Christians say about this world, our lives, our walk with Christ... ALL the time! Is it fulfilled then? I think so.... Another thing to think about... Do you think God created this earth and this world so that He can have a few Christians in the end, or did God create this earth and this world so that men could grow to love Him continually?
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Post by Blemonds on Aug 11, 2003 2:36:29 GMT -5
That is what I am saying! You can't tell me (well you can but I won't believe it ) that God/Christ is ruler over all things in one breath and then tell me that He is coming again to become ruler over all things!! Why can't all those things be true? EPH. 1 shows that Christ DOES have all things under His feet! Christ is our King.. We don't have to wait for it to happen, wouldn't you agree? Some say "MY God Reigns" but yet in the next breath say "when Christ comes back to reign...."?? How is that? See, I hear people all day long (not every day though LOL) tell me that Jesus has done this and that which sounds like it is right out of the book of Rev. but call them on it and it hasn't happened yet. For example, The other day a man said (paraphrasing here) "Jesus Christ is our King! I will serve in His kingdom until He comes again." Isn't the end of Revelation about US serving in His kingdom? If we are doing that now and Christ is ruler over all... WHAT ELSE IS LEFT FOR CHRIST TO DO? That is all I wonder. All I was getting at. I know it is confusing. I would have been confused by myself about 9 mos ago, but if you read the last chapter of Revelation purely spiritually... These are things we as Christians say about this world, our lives, our walk with Christ... ALL the time! Is it fulfilled then? I think so.... Another thing to think about... Do you think God created this earth and this world so that He can have a few Christians in the end, or did God create this earth and this world so that men could grow to love Him continually? Do you have anything else you like to discuss or is eschatology it?
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 11, 2003 2:50:31 GMT -5
Do you have anything else you like to discuss or is eschatology it? Actually, that is why I decided to run for Moderator.. I really only come to the boards to post about eschatology but I LOVE to read through the rest of the posts which leaves me lots of time to Moderate.... so in a way, yes my heart is in discussing eschatology! You would be surprised how many people will say things about the second coming and not know why they believe that way... And yes I am trailing ya! ;D
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 11, 2003 10:50:19 GMT -5
Actually, that is why I decided to run for Moderator.. I really only come to the boards to post about eschatology but I LOVE to read through the rest of the posts which leaves me lots of time to Moderate.... so in a way, yes my heart is in discussing eschatology! You would be surprised how many people will say things about the second coming and not know why they believe that way... And yes I am trailing ya! ;D GuidemeLord, the bible specifically states that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father where he sits until the rapture and his second coming. Has Satan been defeated and thrown into the abyss for 1000 years? Has the world been judged as it states will happen in Matthew 24? When has the earth mourned at the site of the coming Christ which will be as visible lightning from the east to the west? If so when did this happen. If Christ returned as you say then please let us know the date. When did the judgements in Revelation happen. When did the Ocean and the Rivers turn to blood? I just purchased a book on the preterist view called the end times contoversy and after reading just three pages I am not sure how anyone can be a Preterist. I mean there are over 300 prophecies about the second coming of Christ. I just cant understand how someone can believe a viewpoint that would cut out many pages of scripture and the promise of the second coming. It does not make sense to me. My debates with you have started to remind me of some debates I had with Seventh Day Adventists who also seem to believe certain things that force them to ignore many pages of scripture to support their beliefs.
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Post by guidemeLord on Aug 11, 2003 12:46:38 GMT -5
GuidemeLord, the bible specifically states that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father where he sits until the rapture and his second coming. Has Satan been defeated and thrown into the abyss for 1000 years? Has the world been judged as it states will happen in Matthew 24? When has the earth mourned at the site of the coming Christ which will be as visible lightning from the east to the west? If so when did this happen. If Christ returned as you say then please let us know the date. When did the judgements in Revelation happen. When did the Ocean and the Rivers turn to blood? I just purchased a book on the preterist view called the end times contoversy and after reading just three pages I am not sure how anyone can be a Preterist. I mean there are over 300 prophecies about the second coming of Christ. I just cant understand how someone can believe a viewpoint that would cut out many pages of scripture and the promise of the second coming. It does not make sense to me. My debates with you have started to remind me of some debates I had with Seventh Day Adventists who also seem to believe certain things that force them to ignore many pages of scripture to support their beliefs. IGNORE pages of scripture? I am slightly offended that you perceive the preterist view as ingnoring scripture. I hope that I can shed some light on that for you. First I would like to point out that as a Christian you must know that the "Premillenial" view of prophecy ignores fundamental principals in the Bible in view of the coming of the Lord being future. For example, there are 3 versions of a verse stating that God will NEVER dwell on earth!!! Many scriptures (2 come to mind) claim the new covenant world is a "world without end." Furthermore there is NO WHERE is there an ACTUAL reference to a PHYSICAL coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for a second time. IN Fact, John 18:36, Jesus tells Pilate that ..."My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence"... Did Jesus say anywhere that He planned ANOTHER kingdom? Nope... The Kingdom of God is a heavenly kingdom! It always has been... We really should have learned that from the OT account of the Jews/Israelites.... Here is an exciting REALAUDIO presentation of the History of the Premill doctrine.... www.presence.tv/cms/zionism-history-p1.shtmlIt is three parts but very informative... Even if you are offended by the "misguided" term, please listen to the history of the eschatological view you hold....
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Post by semperfidelis on Aug 11, 2003 14:54:50 GMT -5
IGNORE pages of scripture? I am slightly offended that you perceive the preterist view as ingnoring scripture. I hope that I can shed some light on that for you. First I would like to point out that as a Christian you must know that the "Premillenial" view of prophecy ignores fundamental principals in the Bible in view of the coming of the Lord being future. For example, there are 3 versions of a verse stating that God will NEVER dwell on earth!!! Many scriptures (2 come to mind) claim the new covenant world is a "world without end." Furthermore there is NO WHERE is there an ACTUAL reference to a PHYSICAL coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for a second time. IN Fact, John 18:36, Jesus tells Pilate that ..."My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence"... Did Jesus say anywhere that He planned ANOTHER kingdom? Nope... The Kingdom of God is a heavenly kingdom! It always has been... We really should have learned that from the OT account of the Jews/Israelites.... Here is an exciting REALAUDIO presentation of the History of the Premill doctrine.... www.presence.tv/cms/zionism-history-p1.shtmlIt is three parts but very informative... Even if you are offended by the "misguided" term, please listen to the history of the eschatological view you hold.... No reason to be offended - that is not my intention here. I just dont understand how you can state what you state when scripture says that the people of the earth will mourn when they physically see Jesus return. Why would the angels tell the disciples that he was going to come back the same way he went up if he was not going to return to the earth? These two pieces of scripture can be found in Matthew 24 and Acts chapter 1. When did Christ return and if so why is the world such a mess right now? Is this the hope that we have in Christ - that he is ruling the earth now and that this is what we have to look forward to? Christ may be in control but he does not have direct control over everyone obviously, Satan is free to roam, devour and tempt and sin and people can reject the direct rule of God. He may rule the hearts of those that follow him but at this time he has chosen not to take the rulers seat directly. Obviously the kings of the earth rule physically and make decisions to go to war, ect.. at this time in history. In Revelation 19 it states that Christ rides out on a white horse with a sharp sword coming out of his mouth to rule the nations of the earth. See below 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[ It does not say he is ruling them with an iron scepter, it says he will rule them with an iron scepter. Also what nations? The nations of Heaven or another world. No - this scripture speaks of the Nations of the earth and the 1000 year reign. Again, it is ridiculous to even debate this if you ask me. There is overwhelming scriptural proof that Christ will return and it is a future event. My point on ignoring scripture can be found in our earlier posts about Matthew 24. You cannot debate a preterist perspective and take into consideration all of Matthew 24. You have to pick and choose scripture and leave out other things to support that view. For example you can argue that the abomination of desolation took place in 70 AD but it doesnt make any sense when you continue to read the part that states directly after the distress of those days a Sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and then he will return for his believers. Obviously Jesus has not returned and did not judge believers, so this is a future event. Point - if you read the entire bible and all the scripture you understand that Christs promised return is a future event, not something that happened in the past.
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