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Post by heathen76 on Aug 26, 2004 12:19:46 GMT -5
heathen, Do you believe in transubstantiation? Christian. I am not Catholic. I recognize it for what it is: a religious belief. As long as it works for those that are Catholic, then it is fine with me. I also recognize that one can believe it to be an energetic transformation as opposed to a material one. It becomes more metaphoric than literal.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 26, 2004 12:27:36 GMT -5
I am not Catholic. I recognize it for what it is: a religious belief. As long as it works for those that are Catholic, then it is fine with me. I also recognize that one can believe it to be an energetic transformation as opposed to a material one. It becomes more metaphoric than literal. I also believe it's metaphorical. Christian.
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Post by LauraJean on Aug 26, 2004 13:10:28 GMT -5
So what is grace then? I have come to believe that the grace of the bible is the free gift of the Christ's sacrifice. From my perspective it doesn't make much sense to recieve more grace at different times because, like you said, you are either saved or not. You can't have more or less grace or more or less of Christ's sacrifice. Does that help you understand from where I am coming from? Yes, it does, and as luck would have it, a similar question was asked not long ago on the LCMS web site. If it's okay with you, I'll cut and paste the answer as it is authoritative with regard to Lutheran doctrine: At a basic level, it is important for a Christian to remember that when Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead, God pardoned us of all sin. As Scripture puts it, "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespkmtyolpes against them...." (2 Cor. 5:19). Objectively, we have already been forgiven of our sins, those that we have done in the past and those that we will do in the future. This is what makes the work of Christ such good news! The means of grace are the channels through which we come to know and believe this good news, and the means through which the forgiveness of Christ is continually made known and given to us. Paradoxically, what is already ours becomes ours. Like water that already belongs to us in a storage facility, it becomes ours continually when it is piped into our house so that we can drink it. One Lutheran theologian has written, "If God had not forgiven all sins, there could be no means by which the forgiveness is offered." This is exactly correct.
The Gospel and the Sacraments, including the Lord's Supper, are the divinely ordained ways in which the merits of Christ are revealed, offered, and imparted to us. The words of institution in the Lord's Supper, then, are God's way of saying to us: "Your sins have been forgiven already, and again I am giving you anew this wonderful blessing. Be of good cheer. Your sins are forgiven." In this way we can go our way with a clear conscience and a renewed heart.
I guess another way to articulate it is this: Grace is a gift freely given and the Bible tells us the ways in which God connects us with His grace, namely, Word and Sacraments. Jesus describes His relationship with the Church as that of a man and his wife. When you get married, you don't kiss your wife once and call it a done deal. You continue, for your whole life, to communicate with, to touch, to be one with your wife. In the same way, when you are saved, you don't receive Grace once and call it a done deal. You continue, for your whole life, to communicate with, to be touched by, to be one with your Savior. Is this helping to clarify the mud? Looking forward to our continued conversation! Blessings, LJ
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Aug 26, 2004 13:13:33 GMT -5
That is not an easy question to answer. All I can say is that when we receive we believe it is really the body and blood regardless of what it may appear to be. Not symbolic, but the real thing. Contrast this with something like holy water. It is probably to Catholics what communion is to non catholics. That is, a powerful symbol. But it is not Christ. Eucharist is Christ. Words fail otherwise. Well, I still do not understand the difference between what I see are two versions of one symbolic thing, but I think I do understand better the way Roman Catholics view it and think about it, and so that I all I was trying to figure out. Thanks for trying to make it easier for me to understand.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 26, 2004 13:21:26 GMT -5
I'm not pkmtyolping judgement on you. I'm just trying to make sense of what you are saying. I'm using my God-given intellect. Christian. Look up what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say. He used his intellect also. Mine is rather dull.
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Post by RealistState on Aug 26, 2004 18:33:59 GMT -5
Pietro, I really don't see how the bread and the wine of the Eucharist can change into the flesh and blood of Christ and yet stay the same. That's a contradiction. Christ doesn't contradict Himself. Christian. It is only a contradiction if you think that Jesus is incapable of such a possibilty. Are you saying that Jesus would not be capable of performing such a miracle? Like Thomas, we all may have our doubts. It is our faith in the Lord Jesus that allows us to believe all is possible. This is a wonderous gift that He gave to us. We should rejoice in it!!
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Post by RealistState on Aug 26, 2004 18:49:50 GMT -5
Well, I still do not understand the difference between what I see are two versions of one symbolic thing, but I think I do understand better the way Roman Catholics view it and think about it, and so that I all I was trying to figure out. Thanks for trying to make it easier for me to understand. Philip.. I agree, it is a difficult concept to grasp. I recall as a young child when I first heard it how wierd it sounded. Even as I got older, it was something I struggled with. Then, one day a few years ago I came to the realization (whether through prayer or meditation, I don't recall)that it didn't have to make sense to me. Like the Trinity, it just was! And that some day when I joined Him, it would all make sense. Afterward, my experience of receiving Communion changed dramatically. Each time I could feel His healing grace inside me. It's difficult to explain the joy I felt that first time and each time after. To know that here on earth, each time I am joined with Him. I feel trully blessed to receive Him. It lifts me up! It is so much more than a symbolic wafer of bread or a sip of wine. It is my Redeemer, Jesus Christ fulfilling His promise to be with us until the end of time! May the Peace of the Lord be with you, Philip!
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Post by LauraJean on Aug 26, 2004 20:05:11 GMT -5
Then, one day a few years ago I came to the realization (whether through prayer or meditation, I don't recall)that it didn't have to make sense to me. Like the Trinity, it just was! Goodness, Realist.... that's just so... well... Lutheran of you! Welcome to the fold! ;D Blessings, LJ (P.S., You know I say this with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek! --LJ)
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Post by RealistState on Aug 26, 2004 21:33:16 GMT -5
Goodness, Realist.... that's just so... well... Lutheran of you! Welcome to the fold! ;D Blessings, LJ (P.S., You know I say this with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek! --LJ) LOL...than I count myself in good company!!
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 27, 2004 5:26:02 GMT -5
It is only a contradiction if you think that Jesus is incapable of such a possibilty. Are you saying that Jesus would not be capable of performing such a miracle? You haven't given me a single good reason for why Christ would change the bread and the wine of the Eucharist into His flesh and blood, and I haven't witnessed transubstantiation, so I don't accept it as fact.Like Thomas, we all may have our doubts. It is our faith in the Lord Jesus that allows us to believe all is possible. This is a wonderous gift that He gave to us. We should rejoice in it!! We should also rejoice in the fact that God has given us brains with which to figure things out.
Christian.
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Post by babysis on Aug 27, 2004 7:22:05 GMT -5
It is only a contradiction if you think that Jesus is incapable of such a possibilty. Are you saying that Jesus would not be capable of performing such a miracle? You haven't given me a single good reason for why Christ would change the bread and the wine of the Eucharist into His flesh and blood, and I haven't witnessed transubstantiation, so I don't accept it as fact.Like Thomas, we all may have our doubts. It is our faith in the Lord Jesus that allows us to believe all is possible. This is a wonderous gift that He gave to us. We should rejoice in it!! We should also rejoice in the fact that God has given us brains with which to figure things out.
Christian.You also didn't witness Christ being crucified on the cross, but have no problem accepting that.
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 27, 2004 7:50:22 GMT -5
You also didn't witness Christ being crucified on the cross, but have no problem accepting that. And that is because His Holy Spirit has revealed it to me. Could I have believed it by myself? No. The Holy Spirit has not told me that "transubstantiation" is true. And my intellect tells me it is untrue, so I don't believe in it. Christian.
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Post by Pietro on Aug 27, 2004 8:03:03 GMT -5
And that is because His Holy Spirit has revealed it to me. Could I have believed it by myself? No. The Holy Spirit has not told me that "transubstantiation" is true. And my intellect tells me it is untrue, so I don't believe in it. Christian. How did the Holy Spirit reveal this to you? Words? vision? insight? Did it require any openness on your part? As for transubstantiation, a limited description at best, you simply join the ranks of some protestants since the 16th century. No deeper roots than that other than pagans and apostates. BTW: What does your mighty "intellect" tell you about creation?
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Post by AlphaOmega on Aug 27, 2004 8:34:44 GMT -5
How did the Holy Spirit reveal this to you? Words? vision? insight? Did it require any openness on your part? The Holy Spirit revealed it to me through the witness of other Christians, and through His written word. He helped me understand what Christ had done for me, and why.As for transubstantiation, a limited description at best, you simply join the ranks of some protestants since the 16th century. No deeper roots than that other than pagans and apostates. Many times have I asked myself the question: "Is transubstantiation true?" And the same answer keeps coming back to me: "It's false."BTW: What does your mighty "intellect" tell you about creation? "Mighty intellect"? Why, thank you, I'll take that as a compliment. My "mighty" intellect tells me that we never evolved from the apes because God created us in His image. My "mighty" intellect tells me that the evolutionists are talking out of their backsides when they say that we are "modern apes". My "mighty" intellect tells me that we live in a world that is full of lies and cover-ups. And no, I'm not paranoid, I simply accept that that is how this world works. Politicians are a good example of this. As the old saying goes, "There's no smoke without fire."
Christian. ;D
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Post by PhilipDC78 on Aug 27, 2004 9:52:07 GMT -5
Afterward, my experience of receiving Communion changed dramatically. Each time I could feel His healing grace inside me. It's difficult to explain the joy I felt that first time and each time after. To know that here on earth, each time I am joined with Him. I feel trully blessed to receive Him. It lifts me up! It is so much more than a symbolic wafer of bread or a sip of wine. It is my Redeemer, Jesus Christ fulfilling His promise to be with us until the end of time! That is pretty cool and almost the exact same experience that I have when I take communion. The only difference being is that it is a powerful symbol of Christ's sacrifice for me.
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