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Post by Pietro on Jan 7, 2004 13:11:16 GMT -5
Yes, but the Rcc DENIES that there is any symbolism. DENIES? You say that somewhere in Roman Catholic doctrine it says that that the Apostles drank His actual blood and ate His actual flesh. Yes. The Rcc declares that the bread and wine are the real presence of Jesus, body, spirit, soul and divinity. In fact, I've asked Rc people if they pray to the wafer. I get no answer, but if it is really Jesus, why not? So, the question to any Rc who reads and writes here is the same, do you pray to the wafer and if not, why not?
[/color] [/quote] When you pray to Jesus do you pray to his finger, his wounded side, his nose, his foot? Your thinking is too linear. Look beyond the "wafer".
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Post by genesda on Jan 8, 2004 6:08:38 GMT -5
When you pray to Jesus do you pray to his finger, his wounded side, his nose, his foot? Your thinking is too linear. Look beyond the "wafer". Why? Aren't the words of Rome good enough? Why does one have to look beyond them?
I pray to God THROUGH Jesus the man, who is in heaven, and not in a piece of bread. Jesus went away to heaven to prepare a place for His people and He will RETURN for His people after He has completed the judgment of those whose names are written in the book of life. He HASN'T RETURNED yet. Your doctrine says He never left and that He is here everyday in a wafer because a "priest" COMMANDS Him to be here. This is foolishness.
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Post by Pietro on Jan 8, 2004 9:29:31 GMT -5
Why? Aren't the words of Rome good enough? Why does one have to look beyond them? Not beyond the words, beyond the wafer. Look through it, pray through it. That is the whole point of sacraments, tangible manifestations of God's spiritual presence and love in our world at our level through God's grace. O come on. Even you can't believe the priest tries to "command". The priest doesn't command anything. He prays for God to send the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is capable of implementing Jesus own words, "This is my body, this is my blood"? John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth. Do you believe God is Spirit? Do you believe that God as a spiritual being is unbound by time and space? Or do you really understand him to be on the otherside of the universe somewhere building a material house. God is Spirit. What does that mean to you? I truly do not understand how you think.
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Post by genesda on Jan 8, 2004 10:07:18 GMT -5
O come on. Even you can't believe the priest tries to "command". The priest doesn't command anything. He prays for God to send the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is capable of implementing Jesus own words, "This is my body, this is my blood"? 395. Catholic Church, Roman-Priesthood-Priest Held to Be Creator of theCreator Source: Alphonse -de Liguori, Dignity and Duties of the Priest; or, Selva (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1927), pp. 26, 27, 31-35. [p. 261 With regard to the power of priests over the real body of Jesus Christ, it is of faith that when they pronounce the words of consecration the Incarnate Word has obliged himself to obey[/b] and to come into their hands under the sacramental species.... We find that in obedience to the words of his priests--[/u][/color]Hocest Corpus Meum [This is my body]- God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him, and as often as they call him, and places [p. 271 himself in their hands, even though they should be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, or expose him on the altar, carry him outside the church; they if they choose, eat his flesh, and give Him for the food of others.... [ 31] Besides, the power of the surpkmtyolpes that of the Blessed Virgin Mary; for, although this divine mother can pray for us, and by her praters can obtain whatever she wishes, yet cannot absolve a Christian from the smallest sin. . . . [P. 32] Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, since by saying the words consecration, he creates, as it were, Jesus in the sacrement, by giving Him a sacremental existence, and produces him as a victim to be offered to the Father....[/color] [P. 331 "The power of the priest," says Bernardine of Sienna, "is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world." . . . [P. 34] "Let the priest," says St. Laurence Justinian, "approach the altar as another Christ." Accordino to St. Cyprian, a priest at the altar performs the office of Christ.... The priest holds the place of the Saviour himself, when, by saying "Ego te absolvo," he absolves from sin. This great power, which Jesus Christ has received from his eternal Father, he has communicated to his priests.... [P. 35] The Jews justly said: Who can forgive sins but God alone? But what only God can do by his ornnipotence, the priest can also do by saying "Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis" ["I absolve you from your sins"]. . .,. Cardinal Hugo represents the Lord addressing the following words to a Priest who absolves a sinner: "I have created heaven and earth, but I leave to you a better and nobler creation, make out of this soul that is in sin a new soul, that is, make out of a slave of Satan, that the soul is, a child of God."
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Post by HomeAtLast on Jan 8, 2004 10:33:19 GMT -5
Why? Aren't the words of Rome good enough? Why does one have to look beyond them?
I pray to God THROUGH Jesus the man, who is in heaven, and not in a piece of bread. Jesus went away to heaven to prepare a place for His people and He will RETURN for His people after He has completed the judgment of those whose names are written in the book of life. He HASN'T RETURNED yet. Your doctrine says He never left and that He is here everyday in a wafer because a "priest" COMMANDS Him to be here. This is foolishness.
[/color][/quote] gene, actually if you would observe the pkmtyolm, you would see that the priest ASKS that Jesus come to us through the bread and wine. Jesus said, "Ask and you shall recieve." Blessings, Ann
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Post by genesda on Jan 8, 2004 11:12:05 GMT -5
gene, actually if you would observe the pkmtyolm, you would see that the priest ASKS that Jesus come to us through the bread and wine. Jesus said, "Ask and you shall recieve." Blessings, Ann See post 93[/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on Jan 8, 2004 11:18:41 GMT -5
[/color][/quote] gene, you will have to be more specific, the posts are not numbered. Thanx, Ann
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Post by Pietro on Jan 8, 2004 12:25:41 GMT -5
O come on. Even you can't believe the priest tries to "command". The priest doesn't command anything. He prays for God to send the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is capable of implementing Jesus own words, "This is my body, this is my blood"? 395. Catholic Church, Roman-Priesthood-Priest Held to Be Creator of theCreator Source: Alphonse -de Liguori, Dignity and Duties of the Priest; or, Selva (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1927), pp. 26, 27, 31-35. [p. 261 With regard to the power of priests over the real body of Jesus Christ, it is of faith that when they pronounce the words of consecration the Incarnate Word has obliged himself to obey[/b] and to come into their hands under the sacramental species.... We find that in obedience to the words of his priests--[/u][/color]Hocest Corpus Meum [This is my body]- God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him, and as often as they call him, and places [p. 271 himself in their hands, even though they should be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, or expose him on the altar, carry him outside the church; they if they choose, eat his flesh, and give Him for the food of others.... [ 31] Besides, the power of the surpkmtyolpes that of the Blessed Virgin Mary; for, although this divine mother can pray for us, and by her praters can obtain whatever she wishes, yet cannot absolve a Christian from the smallest sin. . . . [P. 32] Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, since by saying the words consecration, he creates, as it were, Jesus in the sacrement, by giving Him a sacremental existence, and produces him as a victim to be offered to the Father....[/color] [P. 331 "The power of the priest," says Bernardine of Sienna, "is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world." . . . [P. 34] "Let the priest," says St. Laurence Justinian, "approach the altar as another Christ." Accordino to St. Cyprian, a priest at the altar performs the office of Christ.... The priest holds the place of the Saviour himself, when, by saying "Ego te absolvo," he absolves from sin. This great power, which Jesus Christ has received from his eternal Father, he has communicated to his priests.... [P. 35] The Jews justly said: Who can forgive sins but God alone? But what only God can do by his ornnipotence, the priest can also do by saying "Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis" ["I absolve you from your sins"]. . .,. Cardinal Hugo represents the Lord addressing the following words to a Priest who absolves a sinner: "I have created heaven and earth, but I leave to you a better and nobler creation, make out of this soul that is in sin a new soul, that is, make out of a slave of Satan, that the soul is, a child of God." [/quote] Some authors do tend to get carried away in their piety. St. Alphonse Liguori is a good example. Not that what any Catholic author says is doctrine. Are you also scandalized that Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, emptying himself to take the form of a slave being born in the likeness of men? He did oblige himself to obey and be subject to the abuse of humans even to the point of death. Such is the nature of our God. Can you accept that?
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Post by Pietro on Jan 9, 2004 9:25:27 GMT -5
Some authors do tend to get carried away in their piety. St. Alphonse Liguori is a good example. Not that what any Catholic author says is doctrine. Are you also scandalized that Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, emptying himself to take the form of a slave being born in the likeness of men? He did oblige himself to obey and be subject to the abuse of humans even to the point of death. Such is the nature of our God. Can you accept that? Maybe you are the antichrist if you cannot accept the humility of God becoming man, if you cannot accept the authority of Jesus instituting a "New and everlasting covenant" in his own blood, if you cannot accept his power to be present in the eucharist just as he said.
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Post by RealistState on Jan 9, 2004 14:02:15 GMT -5
O come on. Even you can't believe the priest tries to "command". The priest doesn't command anything. He prays for God to send the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is capable of implementing Jesus own words, "This is my body, this is my blood"? You pasted the same supporting documentation way back on #34 of this thread. I responded to it on #42. As I said then, re-posting by you doesn't make it anymore correct than the first time you posted this. Additionally, as was just pointed out to you, a Catholic writer doesn't necessarily make it Catholic doctrine as you keep implying. From the way you posted it, it appears to be a "cut and paste" of a footnote or something. Are you sure you didn't get this from an "online" source somewhere?
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Post by HomeAtLast on Jan 9, 2004 15:18:57 GMT -5
O come on. Even you can't believe the priest tries to "command". The priest doesn't command anything. He prays for God to send the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is capable of implementing Jesus own words, "This is my body, this is my blood"? 395. Catholic Church, Roman-Priesthood-Priest Held to Be Creator of theCreator Source: Alphonse -de Liguori, Dignity and Duties of the Priest; or, Selva (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1927), pp. 26, 27, 31-35. [p. 261 With regard to the power of priests over the real body of Jesus Christ, it is of faith that when they pronounce the words of consecration the Incarnate Word has obliged himself to obey[/b] and to come into their hands under the sacramental species.... We find that in obedience to the words of his priests--[/u][/color]Hocest Corpus Meum [This is my body]- God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him, and as often as they call him, and places [p. 271 himself in their hands, even though they should be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, or expose him on the altar, carry him outside the church; they if they choose, eat his flesh, and give Him for the food of others.... [ 31] Besides, the power of the surpkmtyolpes that of the Blessed Virgin Mary; for, although this divine mother can pray for us, and by her praters can obtain whatever she wishes, yet cannot absolve a Christian from the smallest sin. . . . [P. 32] Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, since by saying the words consecration, he creates, as it were, Jesus in the sacrement, by giving Him a sacremental existence, and produces him as a victim to be offered to the Father....[/color] [P. 331 "The power of the priest," says Bernardine of Sienna, "is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world." . . . [P. 34] "Let the priest," says St. Laurence Justinian, "approach the altar as another Christ." Accordino to St. Cyprian, a priest at the altar performs the office of Christ.... The priest holds the place of the Saviour himself, when, by saying "Ego te absolvo," he absolves from sin. This great power, which Jesus Christ has received from his eternal Father, he has communicated to his priests.... [P. 35] The Jews justly said: Who can forgive sins but God alone? But what only God can do by his ornnipotence, the priest can also do by saying "Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis" ["I absolve you from your sins"]. . .,. Cardinal Hugo represents the Lord addressing the following words to a Priest who absolves a sinner: "I have created heaven and earth, but I leave to you a better and nobler creation, make out of this soul that is in sin a new soul, that is, make out of a slave of Satan, that the soul is, a child of God." [/quote] gene, Perhaps it would be more helpful to quote the RCC catechism since this is the document that confirms the teachings and doctrines of the RCC: CC 1375: St. John Chrysostom declares: It is n ot man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but the power and grace are God's. This is just one small excerpt from the catechism. The full section of 1375 explains more fully. Blessings, Ann
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Post by genesda on Jan 14, 2004 6:50:10 GMT -5
See post 93 gene, you will have to be more specific, the posts are not numbered. Thanx, Ann yes, they are. This is in response to #96.
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Post by genesda on Jan 14, 2004 6:55:55 GMT -5
Some authors do tend to get carried away in their piety. St. Alphonse Liguori is a good example. Not that what any Catholic author says is doctrine. Are you also scandalized that Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, emptying himself to take the form of a slave being born in the likeness of men? He did oblige himself to obey and be subject to the abuse of humans even to the point of death. Such is the nature of our God. Can you accept that? Yes, He did that once. He does not do this DAILY, and He was no slave. He obeyed God before men. Do you accept that? If not, then please show the proof from the scriptures, not from the words of men. [/color]
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Post by genesda on Jan 14, 2004 7:00:45 GMT -5
Maybe you are the antichrist if you cannot accept the humility of God becoming man, if you cannot accept the authority of Jesus instituting a "New and everlasting covenant" in his own blood, if you cannot accept his power to be present in the eucharist just as he said. He NEVER said He was present in the bread. A complete study will show the SYMBOLISIM in His words. If you just build a doctrine on one or two verses, it is possible to come to your conclusion. Unfortunately for Rc's, the doctrines of God should be built on THE WHOLE BIBLE, not just a part of it or one or two verses, and in some cases, just a part of a verse.[/color]
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Post by HomeAtLast on Jan 14, 2004 10:54:56 GMT -5
yes, they are. This is in response to #96. gene, Thanx for pointing that out. Never noticed the post # before. Guess I was just too centered on the post itself. As I have said before, you use every quote except the teachings of the RCC which is the catechism. We have pointed out pkmtyolpages from the catechism to you before and you chose not to respond or you edited them to what you thought they should say. Please use the official teachings to prove us wrong, not one person's wrintings from long ago that most have never seen. Blessings, Ann
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