Is Everything Made Out Of Matter

[Pietro]

No creationist wants to respond to my question?

Pietro said:

How can one explane the diversity of order in the two accounts of creation in Genesis? Chapter 1 speaks of this order:

Heaven, earth, wind, water
1st day Light
2nd day Sky
3rd day Land, sea & vegetation
4th day Sun, moon, Stars
5th day Living creatures- birds & fish
6th day Animals, cattle and man is last

God created man after there was vegitation.


In Chapter 2: 5-7

God created man before there was any vegetation.

Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If Genesis gives us a literal account of creation which order is true and why do they disagree?

[michaeldark]

Pietro said:

No creationist wants to respond to my question?




If Genesis gives us a literal account of creation which order is true and why do they disagree?

You interpret it as a parable too? Lol. I don't know how to interpret it myself,but I know it's true either way. God would never lie,but if it's a nonliteral account I can understand why. He may have mad us in his image,but he obviously didn't make us with his intellegence or wisdom.

[Traffic Demon]

I2AM4GOD - "If you don't believe that Adam and Eve sinned against God in the Garden of Eden by eating some of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, how do you know that Man is in rebellion towards God?"

Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue. The Bible tells us that we have sinned, and I believe it. The identity of the first sinner is ultimately irrelevant.

--TDv2.0

[stevec]

Traffic said:

Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.

This seems to be the stumbling block for creationists. I don't understand why they can't grasp such a simple concept.

Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.

Got it?

[michaeldark]

stevec said:

This seems to be the stumbling block for creationists. I don't understand why they can't grasp such a simple concept.

Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.

Got it?

Yeah,I got it. I also got that you get very picky about othert people's posts too,like mine,in the one about that article.

[I2AM4GOD]

stevec said:

This seems to be the stumbling block for creationists. I don't understand why they can't grasp such a simple concept.

Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.
Interpreting a pkmtyolpage as figurative is not the same as interpreting it as untrue.

Got it?

And I know that you need revelation from God in order to be able to accept the Genesis account of Creation and the Fall. I am open to science, but not nonsense being deliberately masqueraded as such. Of course, you won't receive God's revelation unless you keep an open mind and are prepared to be corrected by Him. The scientists who are pushing Satan's agenda called 'evolution' are atheists who do not accept the Bible as being Divinely inspired. To them, it's just a collection of fictional stories. To them, there is no such thing as miracles, except for their theories of 'evolution', and the 'Big Bang, etc. They don't accept that God exists and believe that the universe created itself purely by chance. And all living things created themselves purely by chance. Where's the logic in that? If everthing has a beginning then who put it all there in the beginning? God. Just belief? No. Fact.

Your Brother in Christ,
Andy. ;D ;D ;D

[heathen76]

I2AM4GOD said:

What color is the sky in your world? Or can you even see the sky with your head jammed so firmly in sand?

[mook2357]

Pietro said:

No creationist wants to respond to my question?




If Genesis gives us a literal account of creation which order is true and why do they disagree?

Well, I am not particularly a creationist, nor am I an evolutionist...but may I offer MY perspective?

First, where are you finding "wind" at the beginning? That is just a curiousity question.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I see this as an "empty" water...that is "separate" from the area we consider space. This is what was the "beginning."

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This is when God began earth spinning on its axis...It would seem that God is the light (debateable for sure...but the sun is created later, it seems...so this couldn't be the sun, unless we had two ), and when the earth is facing away from God...night, and facing towards God...day.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Now there is a clear "atmosphere" that divides the separates two bodies of water, one on the outer limits of our atmosphere, and one on the "face" of the planet (which is still just water visibly at this point).

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

This is where God "pulled" the dry lands to the surface, and labeled them "earth" (as opposed to the "earth" that was in the beginning...verse 1). The waters that were contained ON those lands were seas...verses the water that covered the REST of the earth...

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth gpkmtyolr, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth gpkmtyolr, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

The concept of the gpkmtyolr, the fruit yielding plants, etc has been created, but they have not been "seen" yet, in my opinion. Just as one plants a tree, and it takes much time for the tree to GROW out of the ground, so I see this...the plants EXIST, but have not yet APPEARED...

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

At this point, our rotation around the sun has been established, stars have been placed, the moon is there, etc...they are set precisely to be a GOD GIVEN calander for us...there is MUCH meaning and fact to be found using them, as GOD created them. They are all established and mapped out by God.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

The amphibians are created...and all water dwelling creatures.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

land dwellers are created...

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man is created, male and female here...not one or the other...but seemingly both. (NOTE not Adam and Eve but MAN, male and female...not TWO people, not ONE person, but the SPECIES of mankind, both sexes...)

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

God hands over dominion of the planet to mankind...

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Now God is finished with creation...(concludes in chapter 2 verses 1-3)

Next post for more...

[mook2357]

Chapter two:

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Genesis 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

water of life...all life requires it...and here it is...the "beginning" of life. This is the 'rehash' of Chapter one...it speaks of all the creation in short...

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now man lives...he was previously CREATED, but now lives...here is where he is actually brought to life, or BORN.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

Genesis 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compkmtyolpeth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

Genesis 2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

Genesis 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compkmtyolpeth the whole land of Ethiopia.

Genesis 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

This is not the creation of the PLANTS, or the ANIMALS or anything else. This is the formation of the GARDEN that God made for Adam to dwell in...the MOST BEAUTIFUL of all things, the place God chose for Adam to dwell...all of it was ALREADY created, here it was simply formed and gathered for the pleasure of the MAN He had created...(we know there is more outside this garden, as Adam is shortly CAST OUT of this garden...)

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Again, this is not the creation of these things, but the placement of them in the garden for Adam...just as each baby is formed in the womb, but doesn't discount the fact that there were babies prior...so this is...these animals, plants, etc are not being created here, but formed from already existing creations...or even "blueprints" if you will...

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Again, Eve is not being created here, she is being formed. Woman was already a creation God had finished...this is simply where the woman EVE was formed for ADAM.


An interesting study might be to compare the words "create" as used in Genesis 1, and "formed" as used in Genesis 2:7...

The one from Genesis 2:7 means to "form, fashion" etc...but as in "squeezing into shape" (not creating from scratch) and is linked to an identical word that means BIND, distressed, etc.

Very telling when read in context of the whole Bible, I think

Here is a good source to peruse that study...

bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi

Please let me know if you agree or disagree with this.

[Traffic Demon]

I2AM4GOD - "I am open to science, but not nonsense being deliberately masqueraded as such."

Would you care to present any examples of such nonsense that have been put forward on this thread?

"The scientists who are pushing Satan's agenda called 'evolution' are atheists who do not accept the Bible as being Divinely inspired."

This is so far from the truth that it's absurd. The overwhelming majority of people in the world accept the existence of some sort of supernatural entity or entities, and the same holds true for the scientific community. Even Darwin himself acknowledged the existence of a Creator.

"If everthing has a beginning then who put it all there in the beginning? God. Just belief? No. Fact."

If it's a fact, then certainly you will have no trouble presenting evidence which demonstrates your claim as such. That's the thing, you can't.

--TDv2.0

[Agape]

on 09/17/2003 at 14:45:21, Pietro wrote:How can one explane the diversity of order in the two accounts of creation in Genesis? Chapter 1 speaks of this order:

Heaven, earth, wind, water
1st day Light
2nd day Sky
3rd day Land, sea & vegetation
4th day Sun, moon, Stars
5th day Living creatures- birds & fish
6th day Animals, cattle and man is last

God created man after there was vegitation.


In Chapter 2: 5-7

God created man before there was any vegetation.

Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I put your question on another forum, heres a couple of answers that might help.

in the second account it does not say that GOD did not create vegatation, but that it had not yet grown because GOD had not sent rain upon the earth yet. That GOD created vegetation is seen on the third day.

The real question to be asked here is how did GOD create vegatation before sunlight? Well, if it had not started growing yet - it would not matter.

I've never had any problem with this. I've looked at it as just an expansion of the discussion if Chapter 1. He says if verse 5 that nothing had started growing because there was no rain. Verse six says that a stream would rise and water the earth -- and I believe we can understand that then the vegetation grew. Then verse seven says that God formed man. (By the way, I'm using the New Revised Standard Version) I read the eighth verse as though God had already planted the garden of Eden, and when He had formed man, that's where He placed him - - - and that's where Adam exercised his free will and -- well, mankind is still exercising his free will.

As for sunlight, I see in Chapter 1 that light was the first thing that God created. Chapter 2 doesn't include all the details of Chapter 1, but seems to be more concerned with the creation of man and his placement in the beautiful paradise of Eden, God's one restriction, and the presentation to Adam of a helpmeet for him -- Eve.

Does this help?

Blessings!

[I2AM4GOD]

Traffic Demon,

God's existence and the fact that He created every living thing in existence is fact! Can I prove this? No. Can you disprove this? No. Do I know that it's a fact? Yes, because the Bible, which has God's full authority behind it, says so! I know, because I've read it. I don't have to prove it to you. If God was to appear to you right now, could you stand in His awesome presence? Probably not. You would quite possibly drop dead at the sight of Him. Prove God's existence, prove that he created everything? What foolish things to say! Don't you know that the fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom?

Your Brother in Christ,
Andy.

[Pietro]

mook2357 said:

Now man lives...he was previously CREATED, but now lives...here is where he is actually brought to life, or BORN.

That was a pretty nice try, Mook. But in Genesis 1:29 "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." man is not only created but also alive and God is talking to him giving him seed bearing herbs and fruiting trees which according to the second chapter had not yet been created.

I lean toward the theory that these are two different traditions of creation narrative brought together. One tradition emphasizes order and goodness while the other accounts for sin.

And both divinely inspired.

[PhilipDC78]

I2AM4GOD said:

Traffic Demon,

God's existence and the fact that He created every living thing in existence is fact! Can I prove this? No. Can you disprove this? No. Do I know that it's a fact? Yes, because the Bible, which has God's full authority behind it, says so! I know, because I've read it. I don't have to prove it to you. If God was to appear to you right now, could you stand in His awesome presence? Probably not. You would quite possibly drop dead at the sight of Him. Prove God's existence, prove that he created everything? What foolish things to say! Don't you know that the fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom?

Your Brother in Christ,
Andy.

Just a caution Andy. You may have some good things to say, but you are saying them entirely in the WRONG way! By saying that a fellow believer (TD has said multiple times that he is a Christian, even if you don't believe that) will die, not be able to face God, etc, then you are condemning him. You are in fact judging him as lost, and that is not your job! Only God can do that. So present your argument in a respectful, loving, CHRISTLIKE way, or don't present it at all. All you are doing right now is being a BAD example of a Christian.

[larrygn]

Deborah4God, et. alt.:

If you correctly read the early Genesis; you will find both the mention of the triune God, and instead of the first day, you will find correctly that it is the time before the creation of the laws of the conservation of matter and energy came into effect. This is the famous Einstein theory E=mc2. It states that the total of matter and energy is a constanct, and that while they can be converted back and forth, it is through this equation, so that conversion of energy to matter is for all practical purposes impossible by man with 21st century technology. The Bible is not opposed to this theory, it first reveals it.
Yours in the Ever Living Christ,
Larry